This DISGUSTS me!!!!!

[bronzzhorse]

I just found this page while browsing.... I am COMPLETELY disgusted by it.... Look down the page (about 3/4's of the way down) to the "Cave Stalactites for Sale" section.....

http://www.tellmewhereonearth.com/Web%2 ... Page_3.htm

They also have other random items removed from caves for sale in other sections of the site........
Need I say more????

[Phil Winkler]

That is pretty bad, indeed. I can't imagine what could be done about it, tho.

How sad that people do things like that. Still, his prices look very high so I doubt he sells much.

[self-deleted_user]

Really...just about his whole site disgusts me. >_<

[wyandottecaver]

O.K. I guess I'm the odd man out. Im certainly not disgusted by the site. In fact, I'm not even sure I'm very upset about it. Cave formations from Mexico and China. They were probably acquired and sold legally and maybe helped some peasant keep from starving. Would it be BETTER if the NSS or you disgusted folks sent down some cash and bought those caves as preserves? maybe. Woulda been nice if someone could have saved formations from some of our caves a hundred years ago too...but mostly nobody did. Now we are getting self rightous.

Plus, we simply don't know the history. was this a grand cave ruthlessly plundered for short term gain? Were these specimens removed for trail development? Part of a quarry operation?

I have (using careful consideration) blasted "normal" formations to bits to push caves. I have collected (and still have) a large number of spectacular formations from a cave that was soon to be driveway gravel. The NSS and no doubt many others would disagree with this. That's O.K. too.

[self-deleted_user]

To me it wasn't the fact that there were some formations - for all I know they could've been picked off the ground (if it's already broken, I guess I don't necessarily see the harm.) It was prettymuch everything on that site...crocodile skins and feet and teeth and all sorts of stuff like that. The "vibe" I got from the site was one of taking from the environment without regard to life and selling it for gain.

[wyandottecaver]

I see your point. Though much of that is likely farmed and even if wild caught, it's usually better for a dangerous animal to be a threat AND valuable...rather than just a threat. Besides, to be facetious I could say that all those acres of corn we are so proud of in America used to support a lot of neat things we've already killed off :)

[self-deleted_user]

well if anything the site design, layout, and colors were horrible and disgusting :P

[NZcaver]

O.K. I guess I'm the odd man out.

Seems to be a popular theme.

Actually this time I'm inclined to agree with you. It is what it is. It's certainly not the conservation ethic that cavers promote, but it happens. The forum is full of old topics detailing cave formations for sale on eBay etc. Some had suspicious origins (possibly harvested illegally from US public lands) and were reported, but most seem to have been legitimately harvested. As distasteful as it seems to most of us, some people out there like to expand their rock collections to include cave formations.

[Chads93GT]

Aren't your formations starting to crumble out of the 100% humidity environment?

[wyandottecaver]

chad,

I'm no minerals guy, but the effect that removing a formation has seems to depend a lot on what it is. Most calcite seems to hold up fine. Gypsum, aragonite, selenite seem to vary.

[rlboyce]

I second wyandottecaver's observation. Don't know if certain formations are susceptible to crumbling or that is just some sort of myth, but every formation I've ever seen outside of a cave has remained quite hard.

[bronzzhorse]

To be honest, its the whole "selling, taking or displaying Cave Formations implies to others that its OK to TAKE THEM"..........
Some folks on this site jumped ALL OVER me once for asking about using cave formations in a presentation to schools, because I would be "encouraging kids to go get some of their OWN formations", but its "OK" for these people to SELL them for OTHERS to display (because it's feeding a starving peasant in Mexico makes it Ok???) And does a company selling MEXICAN cave artifacts in MYRTLE BEACH to U.S. TOURISTS still help the Mexican peasants?........hmmmmmmm?
Im having a hard time finding consistency in folks on here. Seems more like "Whats good for the goose aint good for the gander"

[commanderzoom]

Im having a hard time finding consistency in folks on here. Seems more like "Whats good for the goose aint good for the gander"

I'm pretty unwavering when it comes to owning/selling speleothems. They belong in the cave, not in my or anyone else's house.

Also, dude needs to find a display stand or something for those stalagmites he has no business selling. The way he's holding the stalagmites in some of those photos make my mind wander more toward porn shop item than something stolen from a cave... My husband said the same thing when I showed them to him so it's not just me who would think something like that. Eww.

[bronzzhorse]

Now we are getting self rightous.

REALLY?????!!!!
I am being self rightous for NOT liking to see cave formations removed????
I didnt say "Lets start a movement"
I just thought it was sad that people get away with it for PROFIT!!!!!

[bronzzhorse]

I have collected (and still have) a large number of spectacular formations from a cave that was soon to be driveway gravel.

You critisized me a while back ( viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9390 ) for even THINKING about using specimens in a Student presentation, telling me "not to rain on anyones parade... but this is an official NSS site. The official policy of the NSS is that real cave formations should never be collected or displayed from ANY source for ANY purpose even for educational use since it might encourage others to collect irresponsibly."

So it's Ok to have them and display them, as long as they were about to be destroyed??? Isnt that "Collecting", and "displaying"....(Remember kids, "real cave formations should never be collected or displayed from ANY source for ANY purpose")

Like I said.... CONSISTENCY????????????

So... let me get this right..... I shouldnt use specimens (not taken by me) in a presentation that might EDUCATE "others", because "it might encourage others to collect irresponsibly.", but you have no problem with these folks importing them from other COUNTRIES for PERSONAL PROFIT .....(but its ok.... it fed a peasant!!)
Seems like its ok to you as long as it isnt from YOUR caves.......