Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby Jon » Jan 20, 2011 10:45 pm

Oh where to begin? There is a difference between vermin and harmless, helpful animals. Rabies? Oh come on now check with BCI on the #'s. Then check with Centers for Disease Control as to the number of people, who through no stupid act of their own, are infected with rabies by bats.

And I do take GREAT offense at your drawing a line between me and Pot Pol and Hitler. I do however accept and appreciate the comparison with Gen. Patton.

Your ignorance is apparently the result of too much time spent running wild and not enough time reading. Your "logic" defies itself. I wont waste my time explaining it all to you, to quote Patton here, "never fight a battle when nothing will be gained by winning".

You might try reading 'Gen. Patton's Principles For Life And Leadership' by Porter B Williamson. You might just learn something and not make such a stupid comparison again.

You also might want to reconsider making public statements alluding to enjoying hunting (that's fine) and "and at a more basic level killing" (that's bound to get you in trouble in more ways than one)
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby NZcaver » Jan 20, 2011 11:08 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:jon,

Don't take this the wrong way...but people like you are where the Hitlers and Pol Pots come from. To be fair it's also where the George Pattons come from too.

You have the audacity to think that YOUR version of right and wrong is the only one. Whether it's that killing 80 bats is wrong or killing 8 million jews is right, the danger is the same.

OK Todd, thanks for invoking Godwin's Law. :roll:

I also happen to object to people preaching their own personal interpretation of right and wrong as being absolute. However judging by all the other recent replies, in this instance you seem to be the odd one out. Likening Jon to Hitler and Pol Pot to justify your opinion that it's acceptable to indiscriminately kill animals like bats (NOT hunting or pest control) is ridiculous nonsense. Don't take this the wrong way, but that's just silly BS.

We're getting off-topic, so let's try to stick to the facts and please avoid likening people to Hitler etc.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby Jon » Jan 21, 2011 1:02 am

Thank you NZCAVER, I didn't mean to sound like I was imposing my right and wrong on anybody, I just can't understand how anyone can condone or justify the actions in question here. I also do tend to get a bit riled when someone says "No don't take this the wrong way...." because more often than not it is exactly what they want to say but think that this disclaimer will get them off the hook for saying it.

This is a nation of laws, and the laws decide "what is right and what is wrong" According to AZ law, shooting non-game animals is wrong. There is no evidence that they were shot to prevent the spread of rabies or for that matter WNS. Even if there was,that job would be done by officials or persons contracted by them. So again by law, it was wrong. There are also animal cruelty laws in this state and this fits the definition, so again it was, by law, wrong.
I didn't make the laws.

Now I will admit that it is my personal opinion that anybody who sits down and methodically kills at least 80 animals for entertainment purposes only, has a few screws loose, and those screws might not be able to ever be tightened.

Anyway sorry if I went off topic but it seems like lately the press has adopted the motto, "Arizona, nothing good to speak of"

By the way, I have seen Godwin s Law in action a lot in the news these days, I never knew it had a name.

Oh yeah I guess I should have proof read the post Duh, Pol Pot ....all the pot polls.... what with our recent passage of Med. marijuana ....easy mistake
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 21, 2011 7:55 pm

Doesn't anyone READ anymore? More to the point does anyone THINK after they read. I agree with NZ's Goodwin's law point, as the reasons against it obviously held true here. Everything else got washed under the "he said hitler" frenzy with no thought paid the the actual illustration.

I have already agreed that what happened is illegal. I also pointed out that breaking the law by itself doesn't mean your some kind of societal dinosaur. I agree that *I* think it was wrong too.

What we don't agree on is that the only way someone could have done such a thing is that they must be a sicko, psycho, or otherwise not normal. THAT is my point.

Much of the arguments seem to differentiate between vermin and non vermin, between killing animals for fun or for a reason, etc. as to whether something is right or wrong. The point I tried to make is that what consitutes "vermin" or killing for fun, or even "right" is not universal.

I NEVER said killing bats (or rats) was right. I never said jon was Hitler or Patton was. I said that WHAT is right to you or the next guy is a function of many things. That normal, reasonable, responsible people can disagree. That education, society, culture, all those things matter. That calling someone psycho, weird, disturbed, etc. or suggesting they get "a different kind of sensitivity training" just because they don't believe the way you do has been done many times before in history. That anytime anyone (including Patton) thinks their version of right is the ONLY version that reasonable people can hold thats bad.

As for facts:
I assure you I'm probably at least as familiar with the rates of rabies among bats as you or BCI is. I'm certainly not saying we need to exterminate bats for fear of rabies. Raccoons are FAR more of a threat on that front.

That's not the point. The point is we kill mosquitoes as a human health threat (or just because they land on us) without batting an eye. While I doubt whoever did this had the "public good" in mind, LOTS of otherwise reasonable, normal people think bats are a rabies danger, get tangled in your hair, Should be encouraged to roost in places that flood, and all other preposterous things.

What they did was certainly illegal, It was possibly based on poor information, It could have been done maliciously, It certainly was not necessary. But while they may have held no more revulsion at killing those bats than jon seemed to have at killing rats in a cellar, I say its preposterous we label them sicko's sight unseen.

P.S. You can enjoy birdwatching and camera safari's without enjoying killing. Just exactly how do you like hunting without also liking the killing? Please don't quote me the noble savage or love of the chase crap or we will need a new thread.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby tncaver » Jan 21, 2011 8:46 pm

I understood your point wyandottecaver. I don't know why it is so difficult for others to understand that you are pointing out other possible
scenarios, but that doesn't necessarily mean you think those other scenarios are right any more than they do.
Last edited by tncaver on Jan 22, 2011 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby Jon » Jan 21, 2011 10:32 pm

:off topic: :off topic: :off topic:


Hunting is for food. This was not hunting. I made it clear that right and wrong were according to "LAW" and obviously as I pointed out this was against the law and thus by definition WRONG. There is no doubt. I also mentioned that I didn't write the laws. If you don't like the laws change them, if you can. I will note here that your home state still issues drivers licenses and such, so good luck. Now take that anyway you like.

Why don't you just explain how in todays world this would be normal or acceptable? Just explain how in THIS country as a WHOLE, not the state of home made drivers licenses, this is normal, acceptable behavior. You know something you'd be proud to accept an award from the President from on national TV.

I don't know what your profession is but if you aren't already a politician, you ought to be, your ability to dance and waffle is right up there with the best (worst??) of them.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby tncaver » Jan 22, 2011 9:24 am

Jon wrote::off topic: :off topic: :off topic:


Hunting is for food. This was not hunting. I made it clear that right and wrong were according to "LAW" and obviously as I pointed out this was against the law and thus by definition WRONG. There is no doubt. I also mentioned that I didn't write the laws. If you don't like the laws change them, if you can. I will note here that your home state still issues drivers licenses and such, so good luck. Now take that anyway you like.

Why don't you just explain how in todays world this would be normal or acceptable? Just explain how in THIS country as a WHOLE, not the state of home made drivers licenses, this is normal, acceptable behavior. You know something you'd be proud to accept an award from the President from on national TV.

I don't know what your profession is but if you aren't already a politician, you ought to be, your ability to dance and waffle is right up there with the best (worst??) of them.


Jon, I think wyandottecaver totally agrees with you, that shooting those bats was WRONG (as do I). I am thinking he only wanted to bring to your attention
that there are others out there who literally don't know right from wrong. If those people can be caught in the act of doing wrong then the justice system
will help them to learn what's right and what's wrong. Usually by incarceration, fine or both. As it should be. The severity of their punishment may depend
on the consideration of remorse, apology, or lack thereof.

We can all now grieve the loss of those helpless bats but also breathe a sigh of relief that
WSN was not the cause of death. If it were WNS more bats would likely die soon in many more locations.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 23, 2011 2:37 pm

Jon,

virtually no one in this country hunts for food. A very very few, like alligator hunters and trappers may hunt for income. Wallmart is much easier and cheaper otherwise. Trust me. Eating what you kill doesn't mean you had to kill to eat. Thus virtually everyone who hunts and kills something in this country does it because they WANT to. By implication it means they WANT to kill.

If your yardstick of right and wrong is the law fine. In this case I even agree the law is appropriate. However, you do realize it was at one time illegal in this country as a whole for a black man to use a white restroom? I'll note that it is currently illegal to prevent a girl from joining the Boy Scouts (despite Girl Scouts being available) or in some cases for a Church run Charity to refuse employment to someone on the basis of sexual orientation. Thats the law. I for one do not use the law as a sole yardstick for what is right.

As for how this act would be acceptable in the country as a whole? I never said it was. I certainy dont condone it. But ask ANY wildlife damage control company how many bats get killed in peoples attics? Less than 10 years ago some Department of Natural Resources staff (mostly laborers and mechanics) were killing bats with water hoses that had taken up residence in their 50 yr old wooden maintenance shop. LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of people in todays country in states with real drivers liscences do in fact hate, fear, misunderstand, and are generally "creeped out" by bats. People not too long ago (and still) were killing bats just because they were bats. Ever heard of the "rattlesnake roundups" in the west? They still happen and are considered almost like going to the fair. Yea rattlenskes CAN kill you. so can a bat, but the odds aren't real high in either case unless you are engaging in high risk behaviour.

I will go so far as to say MOST people in this country would not believe killing bats is wrong in and of itself. They might obey the law and refrain, and most arent going to hunt them down, But I've seen too many bats being chased by brooms and tennis rackets to think that people in general are especially concerned for bat welfare.

As for my profession, many here already know. I have a masters degree in wildlife biology, managed a major hibernacula for Indiana Bats, and was a Caves Specialist for the Indiana DNR, and now work for the Federal Government. So yes, I do know what I am talking about.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby BrianC » Jan 23, 2011 7:17 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:
I will go so far as to say MOST people in this country would not believe killing bats is wrong in and of itself. They might obey the law and refrain, and most arent going to hunt them down, But I've seen too many bats being chased by brooms and tennis rackets to think that people in general are especially concerned for bat welfare.


I don't like to but in on others discussion, but other than bat biologists and many cavers,this statement is the real world. I would go as far as to say that very very few Americans know that there is any laws against killing bats, and anyone that thinks otherwise needs to get out once in awhile.


:shrug:
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby Jon » Jan 24, 2011 1:22 am

:off topic: :off topic: :off topic: :off topic:


Ok Todd you win. You know what goes on in everybodys mind. I have hunted, not TO KILL, but for the time alone in the the wilds. I don't have to, but it is for food, NOTJUST TO KILL. I know according to your opinion that this is "crap" but I really don't care if I get anything or not, after all as you say there is Walmart and I do have a job. My fondest memories of hunting involves a freak blinding snowstorm here in southern AZ., years ago. I was dogging a spike buck (I'm looking for freezer meat not a wall hanger) This young buck was way too wise for his age. I had plenty of shots, but I held back to be fair to him. You see to me scopes are for people with less eyesight than me, although I'm getting closer to considering one. I could take a scoped ought 6 but would rather a lighter open sighted lever 30-30 or in heavy brush a 41 or 44 mag wheelgun. Anyway I wasn't too far from home but as I said the snow really started coming down and all things considered I was ill prepared clothes wise. We played cat and mouse for a couple of hours. Looking back I was miserable, cold, wet, tired and frustrated. I never could get what I call a clean humane shot. Oh I could have killed him many times over, but it wouldn't have been as clean as I require in my mind for a non life and death situation as far as food for me goes. I learned a lot of tricks from him that day and I like to think that I taught him a few about us two legged critters. I also like to think that as young as he was and as smart as he was, that our little dance that day, kept him from ever becoming anybodies freezer meat. Every buck I've seen since, no matter what the rack, doesn't compare to that spike just right at the edge of "should I take the shot?" That bud is what hunting in this day and age is about, not the kill, not some stupid wall mount. Looking back I'm glad I never got the shot because that is to me, anticlimatic. I really hope he passed his genes on to many generations, because with Walmart as you say, almost nobody needs to hunt. I hope someday you get to experience such a miserable, cold, wet and frustrating chase, and come to realize that it really isn't about the "KILL" but the chase. If I was allowed only one more hunt in my life, It would be without a doubt that one, with not one thing changed. I can still see that spike in my dreams. You can call me a nut case or whatever, but I don't don't enjoy the kill, it's the chase that makes the memories, the chase that makes the fireside stories.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 24, 2011 6:22 pm

I think we actually agree in some cases. Certainly most people who hunt enjoy being in the outdoors, enjoy the "chase" or challenge of hunting, most eat what they kill, and most respect their quarry. You chose to make the sport harder by not using a scope, being "fair" to the buck, and also not shooting because you didn't have a clean shot. That's all fine. I use scopes because I think they help prevent bad shots but I certainly don't fault your choice.

But let me ask you, Why did you bring a rifle? You could have had the exact same experiance with a camera or even just a walking stick. If a "freezer" deer for food was the reason you were out, then you made some odd choices. I can only surmise you brought a rifle with you in order to kill for fun. The fact that you didn't actually shoot due to various other factors is why it's called hunting not shopping.

In any event we will likely just have to agree to disagree as I don't think you are prepared to agree our type of hunting is killing for fun and I'm not prepared to agree that it is anything else.
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Re: Doubtful WNS Cause of AZ Bat Deaths

Postby Jon » Jan 27, 2011 4:13 am

Todd,
I'll agree to disagree. Yes it was for freezer meat. Didn't "need" it to live so I can stack the odds in favor of the flavor. The desired result was freezer meat, so a camera wouldn't have done the job, and a walking stick bruises the meat too much. I also didn't carry a Twinkie so I could wrassle him to the ground and pound it up his nose to suffocate him. The day I start hunting for the "fun of killing" is the day I stop hunting. Oh and just a side note here, I couldn't have had the same experience without a rifle or a pistol that day at that location. The location was on State land. It is far from being prime habitat. During hunting season though it is a corridor of retreat from heavily hunted areas, to the safety of rural residential areas. Lousy access, and about the friendliest plant you'll see is catclaw and lots of it. AZ State land is not open to unlimited access. Actually without a firearm, a valid license and a tag for that date and location I would have been in violation of the law. The laws are so weird that even with a hunting license, you can't go on State Land and scout an area. The hunting license only allows you to "trespass" on State Land when you are actually hunting. To be there otherwise requires a "recreational use permit" and it is highly unlikely they would issue one (for a fee of coarse) in an area with a "hunt" on. Nor would it be a smart or considerate thing to do on my part.
Sorry you have a hard time understanding my motives, but let's just drop the subject. Otherwise I might have to tell you about a caving bud of mine which may cause your head to explode. He is a vegetarian, so I can assure you he doesn't kill for fun either, but he does hunt because the rest of his family loves venison.
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