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tncaver wrote:Be sure to read the latest USFWS update near the bottom of the WNS information links on the main NSS webpage. It was updated today (12-14-2009). All of TAG is now being affected by the latest decree by the USFWS. Here are the primary headlines
that everyone needs to read. Ironically, this shows that the USFWS has ignored all of the observations and advice that has been written on the NSS forum in the last two years. Perhaps we were not represented very well by those who were in close contact
with the USFWS.
Highlights of the latest WNS Update 12-14-2009
New USFWS Report on WNS Management - Cave Closures Will Play Primary Role.
White-Nose Syndrome Management: Area 3 Implementation Guide (November 2009)
White-Nose Syndrome Management: Report on Structured Decision Making Initiative (October 2009)
ArCaver wrote:...and more and more and more...
I'l go out on a limb and make a prediction. The bats will all die...except a few will survive, most, maybe all species will make the endangered species list and since all bats use all caves (Yeah, I know it's not true but this will be the argument put forth by USFWS, and bought hook, line and sinker by the public and elected officials.) all caves will be off limits. No, I don't mean a one year, or even five year moratorium, but a permanent closure. Many cavers supporting the present closure will get their feelings hurt when they realize they won't be part of the chosen few allowed to cave for research. A few will continue as assistants to the biologists. The NSS will morph into a purely science based organization consisting mostly of professionals. Cavers will stop turning in locations and a law will be passed making it an arrestable offense to keep a cave location secret.
Is the present moratorium really buying the scientists any time? I doubt it, if cavers were spreading the disease then it would have spotted all over North America by now.
I wonder when they'll start closing church steeples?
Joseph W. Dixon wrote:I totally agree with everyone!
The federal government shouldn't have any control over what happens on private land!
I live in Iowa and I have a sinkhole on my farm. My septic tank dumps right into the sinkhole, whenever one of my cows dies I toss it down the same sinkhole, and that sinkhole is also a great place to get rid of all my used motor oil, empty pesticide containers, and the rest of my garbage.
Would you believe the government knocked on my door and told me I couldn't do that anymore?
What right does the government have to tell me what I can't do on my property!
tncaver wrote:I have only suggested keeping open caves with no bats.
Joseph W. Dixon wrote:Now, as for the WNS situation, I do not advocate closing all caves as TncCaver so eloquently puts it, but I do take issue with this "anti-federal, US F&WS bad-guys" mentality that is so prevelant on this forum. Do you honestly think there is a huge government conspiracy to control all caves in the country? Because that is just plain stupid. In a recession with a war you really think funds are going to be appropriated to cover the cost of regulatory enforcement of caves on private land? The US F&WS is trying to come up with solutions to a problem, and admittedly some of those solutions are going to be a bitter pill to swallow, but until there is more concrete evidence those are the only options available.tncaver wrote:I have only suggested keeping open caves with no bats.
Could you please enlighten me as to how you are going to come up with this list of magical caves that have no bats? Are you talking only about hiberncalua? What about summer roosts? Maternity colonies? Night roosts? Swarming sites?
tncaver wrote:That is my personal observation in my 50 years of caving. 50 YEARS. Can you say that?
Joseph W. Dixon wrote:How is that even relevant? I hate to break this you, but 50 years of caving does not qualify you as a bat biologist. In fact, it doesn't even come close. And as for most caves not having summer roosts. I can't argue with what you claim to have observed in 50 years, but I can honestly tell you that I see bats in caves, in the summer, all the time. Ask any bat biologist and I'm sure they will tell you that all caves are a potential roost site for bats. The idea of a cave that has no bats is a pipe dream in my opinion (just because you don't see bats when you're in it, doesn't mean they aren't using it at some point).tncaver wrote:That is my personal observation in my 50 years of caving. 50 YEARS. Can you say that?
Joseph W. Dixon wrote:tncaver wrote:That is my personal observation in my 50 years of caving. 50 YEARS. Can you say that?
How is that even relevant?
I hate to break this you, but 50 years of caving does not qualify you as a bat biologist. In fact, it doesn't even come close.
And as for most caves not having summer roosts. I can't argue with what you claim to have observed in 50 years, but I can honestly tell you that I see bats in caves, in the summer, all the time. Ask any bat biologist and I'm sure they will tell you that all caves are a potential roost site for bats. The idea of a cave that has no bats is a pipe dream in my opinion (just because you don't see bats when you're in it, doesn't mean they aren't using it at some point).
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