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If all of the above is true....what incentive, as a caver, do I have to work with a federal agency?
Seems to me that the agencies want and need cave info from cavers, but by law, can't give any of that info back......
Rick Brinkman wrote:I'm just hesitant to comply because I can see the potential for being gated out of a cave(s) that I found, explored, and surveyed.
Rick Brinkman wrote:Actually, I thought that there was a "loop" in the law that allowed agencies, at the local level, to use their discretion on who they could deal with. (i.e. trusted cavers) But as I read it, there isn't.
Actually, I thought that there was a "loop" in the law that allowed agencies, at the local level, to use their discretion on who they could deal with. (i.e. trusted cavers) But as I read it, there isn't.
I believe these legal statements referencing the Secretary are similar to military regs where they state "the Commander will...". Employees of each department do all their work in the name of the Secretary who, ultimately, is responsible just like a Commander is.
John Lovaas wrote:I had a surreal experience in Arkansas years ago; we were applying for a USFS permit for a cave(as a tourist trip), and none of us had a very good idea of where the cave was. The agency person explained the Act, and he couldn't give us a better location than a quarter quarter section description. He also explained that there was an adjacent cave with an Endangered bat colony, and we definitely shouldn't enter that cave.
He had entrance descriptions for both caves- and they were almost identical. It was a Lady and the Tiger scenario- we wouldn't know which cave we were in until we did - or did not - come across the bat colony.
Lucky for us, we found neither of the caves that day.
ArCaver wrote:All inventoried caves on federal land should have a small brass cap inside the dripline, on the right side as you enter, with a number identifying the cave. Ask for the cap number. If you only enter the cave after you find the cap and identify the cave by number you should be OK. What cave was it you were looking for?
John Lovaas wrote:ArCaver wrote:All inventoried caves on federal land should have a small brass cap inside the dripline, on the right side as you enter, with a number identifying the cave. Ask for the cap number. If you only enter the cave after you find the cap and identify the cave by number you should be OK. What cave was it you were looking for?
I've never seen a monument marker in any of the Buffalo River caves I've visited- but that's most likely due to me not being observant!
Optimus was one of the caves- but I can't remember if it was the one we wanted to visit or not. Never found an entrance that day. Nice walk in the woods, and some interesting features, like a huge round limestone pillar, leaning against the base of a bluff- maybe 25' tall? I've never seen anything quite like it.
Rick Brinkman wrote:I was looking into how the Cave Protection Act affects local cave managers, specifically USFS, and read these two portions of the act:
But:
Sec. 5. CONFIDENTIALITY OF INFORMATION CONCERNING NATURE AND LOCATION OF SIGNIFICANT CAVES.
(a) IN GENERAL.—Information concerning the specific location of any significant cave may not be made available to the public under section 552 of title 5, United States Code, unless the Secretary determines that disclosure of such information would further the purposes of this Act and would not create a substantial risk of harm, theft, or destruction of such cave.
So my questions are:
Am I correct that NO ONE, except the Secretary of Agricuture(Forest Service) or the Secretary of the Interior(BLM) can share information with ANY of the public....including cavers? And IF SO, does that mean, that BY LAW, federal employees can't give back cave information to cavers without ok'ing it with the appropriate Secretary first?
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