Couple of newbie questions

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Couple of newbie questions

Postby KeyserSoze » Jul 18, 2009 10:44 am

When doing splay shots, how would you record the data into the book without messing up the subsequent order of your stations? I am using the pre-printed cave survey paper btw, like this. If it was for a lengthy side lead I would just start it on a new page, but wasting a whole page for 1 or 2 splay shots doesn't seem right. Is there a better way to do it?


Second question

Are there any good publication that address mapping the profile view? Such as how to sketch them, when they are appropriate to use, various types and options, etc. I've read On Station, but it doesn't specifically address profile views, and I'm still surprised that there wasn't a whole chapter dedicated to it. I have the basic idea of how to do it, but I don't want to actually start sketching profiles without having more confidence that it's being done correctly.

Thanks
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Re: Couple of newbie questions

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jul 20, 2009 1:09 pm

KeyserSoze wrote:When doing splay shots, how would you record the data into the book without messing up the subsequent order of your stations?

What I do is put a horizontal line between the non-sequential stations. Example:

F1
F2
F3
--
F4
F4A
--
F4
F4B
--
F4
F5
F6

The horizontal lines don't actually take up a box, but they visually separate the splay shots / radials from the survey sequence. This is also the same way the shots will be input for the data-reducing software, presumably (it's at least the way we do it with Walls), which makes it easy to understand when entering the data, especially if a project manager or cartographer is doing the entry and not the sketcher.

This, to me, is the cleanest and most understandable way to do it. Some people draw arrows or do other awkward things (like put F4, F4A, F4B in a row and hope the implication is clear from the sketch that these all radiate outward from F4), but I think it's important as surveyors and cartographers not to assume, even if we're entering the data or drawing the map, that we are the last person who will ever have to work with a particular data set... many a project has proven this not to be the case.

I have been trying to find an example on my hard drive and will post if I can track one down -- I'm surprised that I can't quickly do so!
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Re: Couple of newbie questions

Postby Spike » Jul 20, 2009 2:16 pm

Often folks will start a new data page when the cave runs off of the sketch page, leaving some blank places at the bottom of the data page. I've seen splay shots recorded in these otherwise blank places. If your using a clipboard with big paper and writing data on small data pages this doesn't work but oh well, paper is cheap compared to the other caving expenses. If you like to keep the string of shots in order you could keep the others on a separate piece of paper I guess. I just do it the way Jeff does it.

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Re: Couple of newbie questions

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jul 20, 2009 2:33 pm

Spike wrote:Paper is cheap compared to the other caving expenses


I agree so wholeheartedly, I am going to soapbox for a minute:

A couple of weeks ago, I went on an 18 hour trip to work on surveying a newly-discovered complex of passages. We ended up surveying 1207 feet of virgin cave. However, I was appalled to realize that, when I arrived at the survey, I only had packed a dozen pages in my book! This meant that, in order to avoid literally running out of paper, I was forced to jam data and sketch into every available place. Cross-sections for page 13 are stuffed in a blank space on pages 5 and 7. A canyon survey goes from page 7 to page 9 to page 3. On pages where I ran out of "left page" (data) space before running out of "right page" (sketch) space, I shoved the data into available places on preceding data pages. It is an utter, utter MESS and an embarrassment.

Let's ignore the fact that, at this project, I don't even pay for the paper and no one would have balked if I headed out with 40 sheets in my binder; we'll imagine this is my own paper paid for with my own money. Typically, I've avoided keeping big chunks of paper in the book because, as Spike can personally attest to, you end up getting mud and crap all over the unused pages, and the end result is that they're dirty before you even use them on a survey! Even ignoring other caving expenses, however, survey paper is cheap. The offset paper (IMO sells it) referenced in this discussion is 13 cents per page ($13/100pgs). If your survey is 8 pages instead of 10, you've basically saved a quarter. Have yourself a gumball, I guess.

I do the same thing, so I'm not trying to absolve myself of all guilt, but it seems that our primary concern should be that our work is legible and useful. If an extra page or two is used because I kept my notes in an orderly fashion, so be it. One might argue for the environmental benefits of saving a 5x7 piece of paper or two, but I counter thusly: if your work needs to be redone, you've had a negative impact in that regard. This same consequence applies to paper cost; it may not come out of my pocket, but if my notes were so confusing they required replacement the survey project would have had to eat the expense for a bookful of paper due to my oversight.

Therefore, I call for a voluntary moratorium on survey techniques that endeavor to save a sheet or two of paper at the expense of the data collection or survey sketch. As a cartographer, I will personally donate $0.13 from my own pocket to each contributing sketcher who feels they've used an extra page accomplishing a suitable result.

/soapbox
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Re: Couple of newbie questions

Postby ian mckenzie » Jul 21, 2009 5:05 pm

I once forgot to bring the survey book on a trip, and we ended up recording the data on several flat rocks with a red crayon we happened to have. My punishment was having to carry the 'book' thru the cave and then back to the car. Thankfully it was a short cave.
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Re: Couple of newbie questions

Postby Spike » Jul 22, 2009 3:33 pm

Ala Mel Brooks and stone tablets

"We surveyed fift--, ten, TEN stations, today"

:rofl:
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Re: Couple of newbie questions

Postby bronzzhorse » Oct 19, 2009 8:18 pm

I have found my own way of "keeping score"..... I use CHEAP columnar paper from staples and MAKE my own colums. It comes out to be about 3 cents per page, so im not worrying about how much I am using. PLUS you can put EIGHTY shots per page, if you use front AND back of the page.

As far as Station numbers go, if you have ever used CAPS cave mapping software, then you know my numbering method.
I survey the MAIN passage first, using ALL sequential numbers.
THEN I come back to the leads or splits, and start each new lead with the "Splay Station" number first, then the next available UNUSED number for the next station of the lead/
here is an example using an unfinished survey we are workin on now. This is only the half NORTH of the entrance.
Image
The stations in the MAIN PASSAGE of this section of the cave are numbered 1-15.
The FIRST lead starts at station 5. The next available UNUSED number is 16. So on the splay shot I record it as 5/16. 5 being the splay station, 16 being the first station IN the lead.
You can scan over this survey and see a couple different leads done this way.
This even works if you have multiple splays from one station.
For sketching, i just buy a new 75 cent spiral notebook for each survey, and record 2 station scetches per page, front and back, giving me a total of 4 station scetches per single page. This may not be the standard method, but it works well for me and my survey team.
CHEERS!!

P.S. I only have CAPS software (because its the only one i understand.. :roll: ) But this is the entire northern section of this cave. If any of you wanna take a stab at carto-ing this survey on one of the other softwares, PLEASE let me know.... I KNOW that CAPS isn't the best carto program out there, but I guess in my case simple minds get simple results... :big grin:
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Re: Couple of newbie questions

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Oct 20, 2009 9:51 pm

bronzzhorse wrote:I use CHEAP columnar paper from staples and MAKE my own colums.

I guess that works if you never, ever, ever get the paper wet, or damp, or moist, or muddy, or bring it near water. Call me crazy, but if I use a dozen sheets of 13-cents-per-page IMO survey paper every time I survey, I'm still out less $$ than I spent on my morning cup of coffee.

It's great if you find a non-standard solution that works for you, but when an admitted newbie is asking the questions, why would you suggest they abandon the "standard" way of doing things before they've figured out what works for them?

Also, you should take more azimuth backsights. Just sayin'.
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Re: Couple of newbie questions

Postby bronzzhorse » Oct 20, 2009 10:54 pm

Jeff Bartlett wrote:
bronzzhorse wrote:I use CHEAP columnar paper from staples and MAKE my own colums.

I guess that works if you never, ever, ever get the paper wet, or damp, or moist, or muddy, or bring it near water.

Legitimate point...but 99% of the caves that I ever have any intentions of surveying ARE for the biggest part, dry caves.....or at least mostly dry.... Its easy enough in these caves to keep the paper relatively clean, and I have enough DRY CAVE surveys planned to keep me busy for the rest of my life. Plus, paper getting a LITTLE damp or muddy is to be expected, isn't it? And what's it REALLY going to hurt? If its THAT bad, transfer the data to a clean paper once you get home with it or IN THE CAVE if it gets to that point (of course, if you're using $.13 per page IMO paper, you wouldn't really want to do that though would you?) If I have any intentions of working in a WET invironment, then yes, I get some cave survey or waterproof survey paper. ((no sense buying the expensive stuff when you DONT HAVE TO))
Its simple.... do the math.
Using IMO paper, which gives you 11 shots per page...at 13 cents per page, thats 1.1818 cents PER SHOT....
Columnar paper is $3.00 per book of 100. Thats 3 cents per page. You get 40 shots per page if you use ONLY the front. That equals out to 0.0075 cents per shot....
SO, over a years time, at 1 survey per month, 1000 shots per survey, Thats 12,000 shots. you just spent $141 on PAPER ALONE...
Now, using columnar paper, on the SAME surveys, I however have spent only $9 ...... My $9 vs. your $141...that's quite a bit more savings than just a "morning cup of coffee" wouldn't you say??? Sounds to me more like a NICE new piece of caving (or survey) gear PAID FOR BY SAVING MONEY ON PAPER!!
Point is... if the only difference is having to draw a line to seperate your columns, and water isnt a major factor, why not save a dollar.....or 132 DOLLARS!!.....
Jeff Bartlett wrote: It's great if you find a non-standard solution that works for you, but when an admitted newbie is asking the questions, why would you suggest they abandon the "standard" way of doing things before they've figured out what works for them?

Thats kind-of a, forgive the term, "unreasonable" question...... As you said... if someone "HAS NOT FOUND A WAY that works for them", what qualifies you to decide that my slightly modified version of the "standard" method won't be JUST THE THING that DOES work for them...The fact that this thread EXISTS is proof that there is NO TRUE "STANDARD", so why NOT recomend MY method along with everyone ELSE doing so?.. Someone ASK for others' input and advice based on THEIR methods..That is what I Did. So why is MY method and MY recomendation the one chosen to be 'not acceptable"?? Is it because MINE isn't the way YOU do it... kinda sounds that way to me....Like another way of saying "you shouldn't recomend ANYTHING that isnt the way I do it"..That just seems kind-of pretencious to me...Let THEM judge my method for themself, and let THEM make the decision for themself..... he MAY find SOMETHING usefull in it. (you know, modifications of "standard" methods have led to MANY, many, GREAT advances) I never recomended anyone abondon anything, I just posted MY method (which is more or less just a "modified" version of the "standard" numbering system recorded on a different kind of paper) IN CASE something usefull could be found by someone..or maybe set off a bell in someones head.....just saying..........
And really, what is SO different about my way OTHER than the type of paper, and the numbering system (which I borrowed from a CAVE SURVEY SOFTWARE)?? That doesnt seem like I am really stepping THAT far away from "the standard". Does a difference in paper type REALLY make a difference? .......Someone posted earlier in this thread that "I once forgot to bring the survey book on a trip, and we ended up recording the data on several flat rocks with a red crayon we happened to have" .........If THAT is ok, then why is it NOT ok to record the data on columnar paper??
I still take down the 3 MAIN peices of info..Distance, Bearing, and Vert. Angle, AS WELL as the Up, Down, Left, and Right.
The SAME information ends up on the Carto-desk EITHER WAY.
Hope I'm not coming across as a d*ck, I just don't think anyone should stop or criticize someone for tossing out new ideas. what's it going to hurt... really??
Jeff Bartlett wrote: Also, you should take more azimuth backsights. Just sayin'.

Also a legitimate point. In this case in particular, we were in a hurry. I know, thats no excuse, but we were in a REALLY BIG hurry....Please don't ask why.
We did set up semi-permenant stations through the section we didnt get backsights for, and plan to go back, calibrate (I guess that what you would call it..Checking that the front sight reading hasn't for some reason changed) to the stations and get some backsights sometime in spring.
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Re: Couple of newbie questions

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Oct 21, 2009 1:46 pm

bronzzhorse wrote:If I have any intentions of working in a WET invironment, then yes, I get some cave survey or waterproof survey paper. ((no sense buying the expensive stuff when you DONT HAVE TO))

Fair enough.


bronzzhorse wrote:SO, over a years time, at 1 survey per month, 1000 shots per survey, Thats 12,000 shots. you just spent $141 on PAPER ALONE

Your surveys are 1000 shots each? Who is in charge of the resurvey?


bronzzhorse wrote:So why is MY method and MY recomendation the one chosen to be 'not acceptable"?? Is it because MINE isn't the way YOU do it... kinda sounds that way to me....Like another way of saying "you shouldn't recomend ANYTHING that isnt the way I do it"..That just seems kind-of pretencious to me...Let THEM judge my method for themself, and let THEM make the decision for themself..... he MAY find SOMETHING usefull in it.

Because standards are standards for a reason. While there's no "one right way" to teach or do anything, I feel strongly that beginners should learn the standard approach first, then tailor that approach to suit their personal needs or those of a particular project as necessary.

In another thread from today, a user is discussing using a laser rangefinder and a piece of string in place of a tape and clino. Well, what's wrong with tape and clino? What's wrong with using cave survey paper for cave survey? What's wrong with doing something the way 95% of cave surveyors do it, until such time when (or if) you think something else might work better for a given instance? Why do we feel compelled to all reinvent the wheel over and over?

Cave survey methods continue to develop, and this is a good thing, but what standards we have are the result of 50+ years of failures and triumphs and learning from our own mistakes. The place for discussing creative new survey techniques is a separate thread, not when answering a new surveyor's question.


bronzzhorse wrote:I know, thats no excuse, but we were in a REALLY BIG hurry....Please don't ask why.

Haha! Also fair enough. I can think of a situation or two that would have required same.
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Re: Couple of newbie questions

Postby bronzzhorse » Oct 21, 2009 3:14 pm

Whatever man.,..... still seems to me like you just dont want anyone having any opinion that doesnt match yours.
Its not like i am re-inventing anything....the dude ASK how others do it, and i TOLD him how i do it... you just dont like it that i do something SLIGHTLY different than you.... like I said before,,,ALL i changed is the number system (WHICH I WILL SAY AGAIN was BORROWED FROM a CAVE SURVEY SOFTWARE)
If my number system is SOOOO wrong, then WHY is it used IN A CAVE SURVEY SOFTWARE???

Jeff Bartlett wrote: bronzzhorse wrote:
SO, over a years time, at 1 survey per month, 1000 shots per survey, Thats 12,000 shots. you just spent $141 on PAPER ALONE
Your surveys are 1000 shots each? Who is in charge of the resurvey?

Now you are just grasping at straws to try to dis-credit my method. I NEVER said that my surveys are 1000 shots each...
I simply used a ROUND NUMBER to show the MATHEMATICAL differences in the paper cost.
Are you SURE you dont work for IMO and just want everyone to use IMO paper???....WHAT about IMO paper is SOOOOOOOO great besides the offset columns and the waterproofing??
As long as the data gets to the Carto-desk, PAPER IS PAPER.

While there's no "one right way" to teach or do anything, I feel strongly that beginners should learn the standard approach first, then tailor that approach to suit their personal needs or those of a particular project as necessary.


Legitimate point, BUT the person asking the question OBVIOUSLY has a good working idea of the "standard" , and was wondering how OTHERS do things.. SO why am I not entitled to give my input as well. I DONT KNOW WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU ARE THE "SURVEY ADVICE POLICE".
PLEASE... I BEG you to tell me WHAT is SO much different about how I take data.
ANYONE can pick up my survey and AT A GLANCE see where ALL the leads start.... no looking for lines or ANYTHING... just find ANY datum set that begins with NON sequential numbers (i.e. 5/16, 16/17, 17/18) and there you go.. thats the splay shot AND the lead that starts with it... no need for lettering, or confusing shot names.
I happen to feel strongly that others (like yourself) have NO buisness telling ANYONE that they shouldnt give advice that doesnt coencide with "the STANDARD" .That type of closed mindedness Is EXACTLY what keep PROGRESS from happening.

but what standards we have are the result of 50+ years of failures and triumphs and learning from our own mistakes. The place for discussing creative new survey techniques is a separate thread, not when answering a new surveyor's question.

The "standards" that you speak of are DATA standards...AS in WHICH data is collected. As long as the REQUIRED data is collected, what does it matter what it is WRITTEN on? You make it out like I have decided the "standard" doesnt work, and just came up with my OWN way of doing it...You seem to neglect the point that EVERYTHING about my method OTHER than the TYPE OF PAPER, is borrowed, (let me say it ONE MORE TIME, maybe you'll catch it this time) FROM A CAVE SURVEY PROGRAM.
If this method is used in SURVEY PROGRAMING then it CANT be very far from "the norm". I dont claim to have some "new creative way" of doing ANYTHING. An open-ended question was asked and I answered it with MY input, same as everyone else. I didnt say "do it this way or you are WRONG". I just put my 2 cents out there as an ANSWER...YOU, sir, are the one who decided I wasnt worthy of putting my 2 cents in where YOU already had.
Point is, this is a FORUM...where people are ALLOWED to share their input...What gives YOU the RIGHT to tell me I have no right?

Well, what's wrong with tape and clino? What's wrong with using cave survey paper for cave survey? What's wrong with doing something the way 95% of cave surveyors do it, until such time when (or if) you think something else might work better for a given instance? Why do we feel compelled to all reinvent the wheel over and over?

Are you REALLY THAT closed minded??
We continue to re-invent the wheel bacause THATS HOW BETTER METHODS ARE DISCOVERED....If you feel so strongly that we should just STOP looking for a better way, then call NASA, The Government, Aids Research groups, all the Cancer Research foundations, FEMA, the FDA, and the IRS, and tell them to STOP looking for a better way. People with mid-sets llike YOURS are the ones who stand in the way of ADVANCEMENT.
I'm sure if I was some big wig from some group you KNEW about, you wouldnt be trying to discredit me. This whole thing between you and me seems more and more like a "big dog" trying to discredit the "small dog" cause I dont pee the same as you.
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Re: Couple of newbie questions

Postby Roppelcaver » Oct 22, 2009 3:16 pm

A couple comments:

The data entry schema that was illustrated (from CAPS?) works fine in modest caves, actually, but anything of length or complexity causes this to rapidly break down. From a practical perspective, however, I still discourage it. In a pure numerical approach, such as this, I find it harder to shoot errors (tie problems, primarily), especially if there is come complexity involved.

The numeric approach can also create fist fights with the chief surveyor when the loyal helper is told to go to station 50 and at station 40 finds a blank wall (not realizing station 41 starts at station 1). At least with the traditional approach, you can be told to follow the A Survey until A30, the left in the B Survey to B40, etc.

Paper is cheap, and waterproof/resistant paper is worth its price in gold. It also lasts longer in the file cabinet, whereas cheapo paper falls apart eventually (I have surveys from Roppel dataing back 40 years).

Traditional data entry is easier to understand, and more easily parsable by those unfamiliar. And, in a complex cave makes for a more comprehensible set of data.
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