ek wrote:I think that as things stand now, it's pretty clear to everybody that 10% bleach poses a danger to ropes and harnesses that requires the attention of those using it.
No argument from me on this point, and I do not believe I have ever actually said otherwise. I do think you may have read more into some of my statements or posts than was actually present, by (for example) inferring that the absence of an admonition not to repeatedly bleach your gear was somehow the same as an endorsement of repeatedly bleaching your gear. On the contrary, I assumed that people would read the manufacturer's statements and call to clarify ambiguities (such as the PMI statements) for themselves, rather than relying on advice about life-safety practices offered from an Internet discussion board. To take such information on faith without independent verification would be foolish in the extreme.
ek wrote:I feel that a very important point, which is less clear from this discussion, is that we do not know for sure that bleach gets rid of the fungus when it's impregnated in clothing or caving gear--there are no published or otherwise publicly reported experimental results that say it does. Bleach has an excellent and deserved reputation for killing microbes, but the WNS fungus is weirdly resilient in a number of ways. I think it is important to understand that we do not yet have conclusive scientific evidence that bleaching is effective.
Again, no argument from me on this point. However, what I was actually saying was not that the 10% bleach method is guaranteed to be 100% effective (which is obviously untrue, as there are no guarantees) under all circumstances on all clothing and equipment that cound conceivable be used on a cave, but rather that it was reported (and believed by at least the authors of the original tests and reports) to be effective (in a qualitative, as opposed to quantitative sense, meaning that it's probably better than doing nothing) for decontamination of WNS-related
Geomyces exposure.
Now, we are all aware that the testing has been limited and subject to disclaimers, and that it has not been repeated and verified to the degree necessary for complete assurance, and that not all types of clothing and equipment were tested. However, I did not think it was necessary to apply all these qualifiers and disclaimers as I assumed that the readers were at least intelligent enough to know these things. But perhaps I was mistaken about that. You seem to think so.
ek wrote:I'm not sure if this was intended, but I think the sense people have been getting from your recommendation that they decontaminate once with 10% bleach, and then use other methods forever after, is that it's possible to convert gear used in WNS areas into gear that can be responsibly used in unaffected areas by bleaching.
I believe you are misstating what I wrote, and I believe you have misinterpreted it and read much more into it than was actually stated or intended. Also, how can you possibly presume to know what "sense" people have gotten from my suggestions? All you know is what sense
you got from them, and you are not the typical reader, since you are possessed of far more information than most people due to your intensive interest in and study of the issue. I believe that has colored your perception and caused you to read far more into my comments that was actually written. I believe you may have been "over-thinking" and over analyzing my comments.
I certainly did not intend them to be as broad and sweeping as you took them to be. But I do believe that it would be irresponsible not to
at least decontaminate your gear if you think it might have been exposed. as was the case with my gear, which was in Clover Hollow Cave in 2007. Am I irresponsible for continuing to use my cleaned and bleach-decontaminated gear rather than discarding it and buying new gear? That is a matter of
opinion, not fact, on which we may just have to disagree. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong on that point.
ek wrote:Bill, if you did not intend for people to understand your recommendation in this way, I would encourage you to clarify this for people. And if you did intend this meaning, I would encourage you to reconsider.
Ok, I will clarify. What I was saying (and am still saying) is this:
The best available information indicates that the most effective way currently known for attempting decontamination of caving equipment that
might have been (but is
not known to have been) exposed to
Geomyces spores or WNS-related contamination is to first clean the equipment thoroughly and then soak the equipment for up to 10 minutes in a solution of 10% Clorox in water (1 part Clorox to 9 parts clean water), followed by a thorough rinse with clean water. It is safe to do this one time on ropes, harnesses, webbing, and other life-safety equipment made from nylon or polyester. It not safe to do this repeatedly and to excess on nylon and polyester life-safety equipment. It is safe to do this repeatedly on metal or plastic equipment,such as carabiners, rappel racks, maillons, helmets, litters,etc. whether used for life-safety applications or not. It is safe to do this repeatedly for non-life-safety equipment such as cave packs, coveralls, boots, and gloves, though repeated application of bleach may shorten the useful life of some equipment. It is not yet known whether the
Geomyces fungus actually causes WNS or whether is is a secondary infection. It is not yet known whether or not the 10% bleach solution is fully effective for decontamination in all circumstances. However, it is the best available method presently known, and it is preferable to using dirty contaminated equipment in uncontaminated caves, or purchasing all-new equipment every time you go caving. Gear that is
known to have been used in WNS-infected caves or sites should probably not be used in other caves. Abstinence from caving is the only sure method of avoiding cross-contamination, but we know that not everyone will choose to practice abstinence from caving, and that not everyone will discard or limit the use of gear based on possible but uncertain exposure. Given that some people will continue to cave and will not discard their dirty equipment and buy new equipment for each trip, those who suspect that their equipment may have been exposed to WNS-related contamination should consider cleaning their gear and decontaminating it with 10% bleach to reduce the likelihood of cross-contamination, and then cleaning gear with very hot soapy water and possibly Lysol or other nylon-safe disinfectants after each future caving trip. This should help to minimize the risk of accidental cross contamination. In any event, cavers should avoid entering known bat caves unless specifically tasked to do so for purposes of research, monitoring, or investigation sponsored by an authorized agency or organization, and should refrain from visiting any cave known to be a WNS site. They should also refrain from using gear known to have been used in a contaminated environment in an environment believed to be uncontaminated.
Now you may find that more satisfactory (though I am sure you or someone will find some points to object to even so, especially since I just wrote it off the top of my head and am not going to study and dissect it for days before posting it, as it is only an example) but I personally find it to be excessively detailed and wordy to the point of being insulting to the reader, because it seems to assume that he is a complete moron who needs every last detail spelled out in Technicolor. Perhaps I have a higher opinion of my fellow cavers than some, but I do not believe that is the case or that such detail is necessary or appropriate. I believe that most people are not so literal-minded and concrete-thinking as to get hung up on the simpler and more comprehensible versions that I and others have posted. But I digress.
The bottom line is that if you have dirty gear that has been in a cave
now known to be contaminated with WNS (such as my gear) and you intend to keep using it in caves, it
might be a good idea to clean it thoroughly, soak it in 10% Clorox, as recommended by manufacturers and researchers, rinse it thoroughly, and then clean it carefully after each future use, while avoiding WNS-infected caves and bat-roosting caves. It would be better to do that than to do nothing and keep using the dirty and possibly-contaminated gear.
But then, what do I know? I'm just another caver beating a greasy spot in the road.
If you think your gear might be contaminated, why not clean and decontaminate it, and then keep it clean in the future? What could that hurt? How hard would that be? Isn't that the least we can do as responsible cavers?
That's all I was saying. No more, no less. Don't over-think it.