The Ideal Cave Suit for TAG

[dagarner_tn]

Here is a research paper I wrote for my Horizontal Caving Class in College. I had trouble finding a single source that discussed this topic so I decided to post my paper on the internet to make research easier for other cavers. Hope it helps.

David Garner
Horizontal Caving
February, 19 2009
The Ideal Cave Suit
When someone thinks of a caver they may picture someone all muddy wearing a helmet with a big bright light and a green or red or maybe a blue suit. As an inexperienced caver someone might want a cave suit for many different reasons. They may think one is necessary to survive in a cave environment, or maybe they just want to look authentic. Cave suits are certainly beneficial but are not necessary for every cave environment although they are for some. Whatever the reason for being in hunt of a good suit there are many options out there and it can be hard to choose. In TAG cave suits are not necessary but often beneficial and there are a few choices to consider when looking at purchasing one.
Caving suits should do three things. First they should keep you somewhat cleaner and drier which is important on long trips. Second they should retain more body heat even when wet which can save your life on long trips or wet climbs. Lastly they should resist sharp edges and rocks (Wyandottecaver para. 2). This means that the most important factor is material. But for most cavers price is also important. A good rule of thumb is the more you cave the more you can spend. If you cave a lot you are going to want a more expensive suit that accomplishes all of the above and is comfortable.
There are three main types of materials available are PVC, Synthetic Polymers (Nylon), and Cotton. The first, PVC, is completely water proof and makes a good vapor barrier. The problem is that it can make you sweat in a warm environment. PVC overalls are used mainly between cavers, working in cold, watery high mountain caves (“1316 Criou” para. 1). In other words they are not breathable and and rarely or never used in the TAG are because they are too hot! Another drawback is that PVC is not too stretchy or ware resistant. It can easily be torn on a rock, but it can also be cheaply fixed with a patch of similar material and rubber cement. Two options are the Meander 1316 Criou $140, or the 75967 Chemtex Suit $70.
Next are synthetic polymers. The most common is Nylon. Most suits made specifically for caving are made from Nylon or some form of it. Different companies and people have differing opinions on Nylon type materials but they are all similar. Because they are so similar it is not necessary to list all of the differences here but some research could reveal more insight to the concerned consumer. There are other synthetic materials out there such as Neoprene in wetsuits. These are better for wet caves which are common in the TAG area. Another is Nomex which is similar to Nylon but not used in cave suits. Rather it is used to make military flight suits which can be cheaper than a caving suit. The drawback is that it may be destroyed in just a few trips because it is not very durable. There are several good companies that make caving suits like Lost Creek (http://www.lostcreekpacks.com), Meander (http://www.meander.sk), B&C Wunderwear (http://www.bcwunderwearinc.com). Most of these suit run between $100 and $200. Perhaps the cadillac of suits is the B&C Wunderalls. They can be custom ordered to your size and material choices in a multitude of colors. They also can be ordered in an overalls and pant only design.
The last is cotton. Some surplus military flight suits as well as industrial work suits are made from or contain cotton. Cotton is durable and cheap and also somewhat breathable. But the main problem is that if it does get wet it will stay that way for a long time. In a cave environment cotton will not keep the user warm while wet. But for the TAG area where there are many dryer but muddy caves these work fairly well. They can be obtained for around $25 and up like the GI Style Flight Suit from http://www.imsplus.com or the Dickies 4870 Deluxe Coverall http://www.dickies.com.
Cave suits offer many benefits over pants and a long-sleeved shirt. But they can be pricy. Before spending any money on a suit it would be best to cave a few times and maybe barrow a suit to see if it is desirable. Many cavers in the TAG area use and prefer Nylon cave suits because of their breathability and price. Because there is no perfect suit for every type of cave each caver has to decide for themselves through experience what they prefer.




Works cited
“1316 Criou.” Meander.sk. 19 Feb. 2009 < http://www.meander.sk/pages/ecriou.html>
Wyandottecaver. “Do you wear coveralls?.” Online posting. Nov 8, 2007 9:30 pm. CaveChat Caving Forum. 19 Feb. 2009.< http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5666>

[Ralph E. Powers]

I've worn three different types of full body coveralls in my caving career. From the cotton blue farmer-John's to a military jumpsuit to an actual cave suit which I believe is a B&CWunderall that I bought second hand from a friend/caving buddy that *ahem* outgrew it (sideways). For TAG I found that this does remarkably well. The nylon is super tough and with the aid of poly-pro unders it does help keep me warm if not totally dry, and I suspect this is because the waterproofing agent has long since been washed away and needs to be reapplied.
Other than that it's a great suit.

[shibumi]

Ahhh, a pet peeve of mine. As a manufacturer of caving suits (Lost Creek) I'd like to respond:

The "perfect" cave suit doesn't exist. Why is that? Because everyone has different preferences and
requirements sure, but also because everyone has different heat generation and losing capabilities.

David has some good info, I'd like to expand a little.

What works really well for one caver in the same cave might be uncomfortable, or even dangerous for
someone else in the same environment. I cave very hot, so even in caves down to 48F, I'm usually in
t-shirt and jeans (specially modified jeans to have kneepads sewn in ;). I used to cave with a woman who,
in the same trip where I was sweating, would be wearing 2-3 layers and occasionally became hypothermic
enough to need to exit the cave.

Lost Creek sells primarily through vendors, so most people aren't aware of the broader range of materials
we make our suits out of, or the fact that we make bibs or pants and jackets as well. We mostly make what
our vendors advertise and sell. We also have lots of different options that can customize a suit including
stretch material in the underarms and crotch, fabrics including 10oz cotton duck to much heavier synthetic fabrics.

A lot of our options or different materials don't add to the cost of the suit or if so, minimally. I've also on
occasion recommended a novice not buy a suit until they've gotten a little more experience so they know better
what kind of caving they will be doing. We also custom size suits at no extra charge (though with a no-return
policy with one alteration done free).

As a very active caver who caves in a lot of different environments with a broad range of people, I am very
happy to discuss what will fit an individual's needs best, and to get them outfitted with whatever fits their
needs best, even when it means sometimes recommending a competitor.

[Ralph E. Powers]

Ahhh, a pet peeve of mine. As a manufacturer of caving suits (Lost Creek) I'd like to respond:

The "perfect" cave suit doesn't exist. Why is that? Because everyone has different preferences and
requirements sure, but also because everyone has different heat generation and losing capabilities.

David has some good info, I'd like to expand a little.

What works really well for one caver in the same cave might be uncomfortable, or even dangerous for
someone else in the same environment.

Thanks for that... very good point(s) that not all suits are suitable for all cavers. Case in supportive point... I would be wearing my cave suit while a couple of guys I'm with are using t-shirts and just plain jeans. Seems they "cave hot" as well. Makes me wonder how well they'd handle an alpine cave?

But yeah, folks should take in consideration their body types, heat/cold tolerances and etc. in purchasing a suit.

[shibumi]

Thanks for that... very good point(s) that not all suits are suitable for all cavers. Case in supportive point... I would be wearing my cave suit while a couple of guys I'm with are using t-shirts and just plain jeans. Seems they "cave hot" as well. Makes me wonder how well they'd handle an alpine cave?

When I've done alpine caving I found that if I wasn't going to be in a wet environment, polypros, long sleeve shirt, and one
of our suits and a balaclava worn as a neck warmer (so I could pull it up if I got cold) worked pretty
well for me. This was when folks around me were wearing two layers of expedition weight polypros, sweater, suit,
and balaclava worn on their heads. I've also done alpine caving wearing a shorty wetsuit under jeans and a long
sleeve shirt and was pretty comfortable. This wasn't any immersion, but the cave had enough water to soak into
clothes.

One trip in Kentucky I wore t-shirt and jeans for a fast trip. 4.5 hours and was comfortable. Next month I went with a larger
group of slower cavers and wore one of our suits made of 10oz cotton duck, polypro bottoms, and t-shirt and froze because
it was 11 hours to do the same trip.

[Ralph E. Powers]

Thanks for that... very good point(s) that not all suits are suitable for all cavers. Case in supportive point... I would be wearing my cave suit while a couple of guys I'm with are using t-shirts and just plain jeans. Seems they "cave hot" as well. Makes me wonder how well they'd handle an alpine cave?

When I've done alpine caving I found that if I wasn't going to be in a wet environment, polypros, long sleeve shirt, and one
of our suits and a balaclava worn as a neck warmer (so I could pull it up if I got cold) worked pretty
well for me. This was when folks around me were wearing two layers of expedition weight polypros, sweater, suit,
and balaclava worn on their heads. I've also done alpine caving wearing a shorty wetsuit under jeans and a long
sleeve shirt and was pretty comfortable. This wasn't any immersion, but the cave had enough water to soak into
clothes.

That's one of the differences I've noticed with the caves here in TAG and the Alpine caves I've done as well. The water is frightfully cold (often times just above freezing) in the Alpine regions of the country. Whereas here in TAG the water by comparison is cool. One could still get hypothermic but not as quickly. Still precautions should be taken either way and the threat just as seriously.
When I did a section of Bible Springs cave here in TN that required a low ceiling swim I believe I was wearing my suit. It fortunately kept a majority of the wet/cold away from my skin though it still got soaked. With the use of poly-pro I was able to stave off any loss of heat from my core.

[Chads93GT]

Does anyone make a pair of caving pants, like the caving suits, but only..................pants??? When caving I sweat like mad, but im usually in a wetsuit cave, and I need a protective layer over my wetsuit. I like my pants to be fairly tight to reduce snagging, and the ability to get through tight chest compressors, without my ass snagging on something.

Id like to get a cave suit, but I think I would die from spontaneous combustion.

[Ralph E. Powers]

Does anyone make a pair of caving pants, like the caving suits, but only..................pants??? When caving I sweat like mad, but im usually in a wetsuit cave, and I need a protective layer over my wetsuit. I like my pants to be fairly tight to reduce snagging, and the ability to get through tight chest compressors, without my ass snagging on something.

Id like to get a cave suit, but I think I would die from spontaneous combustion.

Contacting one of the manufacturers I think you could get one pair custom made. wouldn't hurt to ask.

[Lava]

The ideal TAG cave suit is not a cave suit at all, but polypro bottoms, shorts over that to protect the polys, synthetic t-shirt, and a pullover fleece. Oh, and wellies.

I only wear cave suits (PVC) when alpine caving. Otherwise I find them cumbersome and very hot.

[Carl Amundson]

Does anyone make a pair of caving pants, like the caving suits, but only..................pants??? When caving I sweat like mad, but im usually in a wetsuit cave, and I need a protective layer over my wetsuit. I like my pants to be fairly tight to reduce snagging, and the ability to get through tight chest compressors, without my ass snagging on something.

Id like to get a cave suit, but I think I would die from spontaneous combustion.

B&C Wunderwear, Inc makes just pants. They are made out of the same material as coveralls.

[Anonymous_Coward]

The ideal TAG cave suit is not a cave suit at all, but polypro bottoms, shorts over that to protect the polys, synthetic t-shirt, and a pullover fleece. Oh, and wellies.

I only wear cave suits (PVC) when alpine caving. Otherwise I find them cumbersome and very hot.

Although many TAG cavers would disagree, I agree with Bruce and find cave suits (even cordura) MUCH too hot for TAG caves. It's like 56 degrees down there!

Unless you are going to be swimming and need a wetsuit, go with the shorts and tights option. I find that works well down into the mid-40's. Colder than that, I'd go for the cave suit.

[Chads93GT]

Does anyone make a pair of caving pants, like the caving suits, but only..................pants??? When caving I sweat like mad, but im usually in a wetsuit cave, and I need a protective layer over my wetsuit. I like my pants to be fairly tight to reduce snagging, and the ability to get through tight chest compressors, without my ass snagging on something.

Id like to get a cave suit, but I think I would die from spontaneous combustion.

B&C Wunderwear, Inc makes just pants. They are made out of the same material as coveralls.

Thanks! I googled the company and found a company website, and EVERY link on the page was broken. It was mostly text "describing" what they have for products, but no pictures, no nothing. How is a company supposed to sell their product if they don't even have a website that works lol. so frustrating. Oh well.

[Carl Amundson]

Does anyone make a pair of caving pants, like the caving suits, but only..................pants??? When caving I sweat like mad, but im usually in a wetsuit cave, and I need a protective layer over my wetsuit. I like my pants to be fairly tight to reduce snagging, and the ability to get through tight chest compressors, without my ass snagging on something.

Id like to get a cave suit, but I think I would die from spontaneous combustion.

B&C Wunderwear, Inc makes just pants. They are made out of the same material as coveralls.

Thanks! I googled the company and found a company website, and EVERY link on the page was broken. It was mostly text "describing" what they have for products, but no pictures, no nothing. How is a company supposed to sell their product if they don't even have a website that works lol. so frustrating. Oh well.

Yeah, I don't know what to tell you.
She goes to a lot of caving events and there you can try on the pants.
She always has a large selection of coveralls, bibs, pants, etc.

[Chads93GT]

wonder if she will be at the mvor this year ;)

[Scott McCrea]

Try the search function. There is a thread about how to get in touch with her.