Knot Tying Animation

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Knot Tying Animation

Postby Squirrel Girl » Dec 21, 2005 11:56 am

http://www.animatedknots.com/index.php? ... goGrog.jpg

It's pretty cool. Multiple images are strung together into an animation.
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Postby jmo » Dec 21, 2005 1:17 pm

Great link Barbara! That website will come in very handy. *added to bookmarks*
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Postby Squirrel Girl » Dec 21, 2005 1:32 pm

jmo wrote:Great link Barbara! That website will come in very handy. *added to bookmarks*
Credit where credit is due. It was sent to me from Ann Bosted, the photographer.
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Postby wendy » Dec 21, 2005 9:20 pm

Thanks, I passed the link on to some of my friends.
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Postby George Dasher » Dec 30, 2005 11:18 am

Neat!!
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Postby Ralph E. Powers » Jan 2, 2006 9:44 pm

Way neat.
Hope more (caving) knots are added as time goes on. The ones I have trouble with are the "in-line" knots (8 and 9's) Gotta love it. :kewl:
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Postby RescueMan » Jan 2, 2006 10:14 pm

Ralph E. Powers wrote:The ones I have trouble with are the "in-line" knots (8 and 9's) Gotta love it.


To tie an inline figure-8 on a bight, simply wrap the bight around ONLY the anchored or loaded strand of the rope (that'll leave the finished loop facing away from the anchored or loaded end).

Image

The figure-8 follow-through on the above-linked website is tied WRONG.

The chances of tying a common figure-8 on a bight WRONG is 50% if you're not paying attention. To tie it right, the first turn of the working end inside the knot must lie UNDERNEATH the parallel turn of the standing part.

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Postby hunter » Jan 3, 2006 6:34 pm

RescueMan, what do you mean by "WRONG"?
Weaker? More likely to slip? Just Ugly?

I seem to remember hearing that an undressed figure 8 is a bit weaker but I have certainly seen them hold plenty of hard falls (climbing).

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Postby RescueMan » Jan 3, 2006 7:16 pm

hunter wrote:RescueMan, what do you mean by "WRONG"?
Weaker? More likely to slip? Just Ugly?


If it were Ugly, then knot users might more easily see their mistake. Unfortunately it looks much the same as a "correct" figure-8 on a bight.

And, you're "right" to ask what I mean by "wrong". Let's say better/worse rather than right/wrong.

As you can see in the above graphic, the "correct" figure-8 on a bight captures the working (free) end under the first turn of the loaded standing part, locking the tail into the knot.

This makes the figure-8 on a bight a very secure knot (it is also a very stable knot). A secure knot generally does NOT require a backup or safety knot (to keep the tail from pulling into the knot).

If you routinely tie a backup knot (double overhand is best) on the tail of a figure-8 on a bight (and snug it up close to the host knot), then it matters less that the knot is less secure than it might be. But you might then be transfering some of the load to the backup knot.

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Postby Scott McCrea » Jan 3, 2006 7:39 pm

:? :question: I'm confused.

I'm not sure what end, tail, over, under, working, etc you are talking about. I have a rope in my hand and have tried what I [i]think]/i] you are talking about, and can't see the difference.

I have heard that you should end up with the working/loaded end of the rope on the top of the knot, so it makes the widest angle turn. Is that what you mean? Or are you talking about the tail?
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Postby RescueMan » Jan 3, 2006 8:22 pm

Scott McCrea wrote:I'm not sure what end, tail, over, under, working, etc you are talking about.


This is why I've been a strong advocate of a common language for knot tying. There are standard terms, but amazingly few knot users are aware of them.

Working end: the end of rope used to tie the knot (becomes the tail)
Standing part: the rest of the rope

If an end-loop knot, like a fig-8 on bight, is used to anchor a rappel rope, then the load is shared by the end-loop (anchor) and the standing part.

If the first turn of the standing part as it enters the knot captures the last turn of the tail as it exits, then the knot tends to be more secure.

Secure: the characteristic of a knot which prevents it from untying itself.

I have a rope in my hand and have tried what I think you are talking about, and can't see the difference. I have heard that you should end up with the working/loaded end of the rope on the top of the knot, so it makes the widest angle turn. Is that what you mean? Or are you talking about the tail?


Now there's a meaningless term: "top of the knot" Depends on which way is up! Which is why I refered to the position of the tail, since that's independent of orientation.

ImageImage

In these pictures, the tail is captured by the most heavily loaded turn within the knot.

The radius of the first turn of the standing part is the same whether the knot is tied "right" or "wrong", once the knot is properly dressed and set and no longer flat.

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Postby Scott McCrea » Jan 3, 2006 10:03 pm

RescueMan wrote:This is why I've been a strong advocate of a common language for knot tying. There are standard terms, but amazingly few knot users are aware of them.


This is a noble endeavor. Do you have this list or can you direct us to it? I would love to learn them, cause I sure don't know them now.

I have a rope in my hand and have tried what I think you are talking about, and can't see the difference. I have heard that you should end up with the working/loaded end of the rope on the top of the knot, so it makes the widest angle turn. Is that what you mean? Or are you talking about the tail?


Now there's a meaningless term: "top of the knot" Depends on which way is up! Which is why I refered to the position of the tail, since that's independent of orientation.


True. My bad.

The radius of the first turn of the standing part is the same whether the knot is tied "right" or "wrong", once the knot is properly dressed and set and no longer flat.


OK, I think I get it. The goal is to get the tail contained inside the knot as much as possible, right? Do you have a picture of it properly tied and dressed and set, rather than just flat?
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Postby RescueMan » Jan 3, 2006 10:57 pm

Scott McCrea wrote:Do you have this list or can you direct us to it?

Here is an intro:

Rope terminology:
standing part - the main part of the rope
working end - the end being used
bitter end - the other end
bight - a fold (or U) of the rope
loop - a turn of the working end that crosses the standing part (either overhand or underhand)
round turn - a full encircling turn around an anchor, working end parallel to the standing part

Knot terminology:
* knot - secures an object or the rope to itself (e.g. square knot) - will stay tied if object is removed
* bend - connects two ropes together (e.g. sheet bend, double fishermen's bend)
* hitch - secures a load to an anchor (e.g. clove hitch) - will fall apart if object is removed
* loop knot - forms a fixed loop in the rope (e.g. bowline, figure-8 on a bight, butterfly)

Elements of a good knot:
- easy to tie
- performs its intended function
- easy to inspect
- easy to untie

OK, I think I get it. The goal is to get the tail contained inside the knot as much as possible, right? Do you have a picture of it properly tied and dressed and set, rather than just flat?


Right, similarly with the "correct" bowline (with the tail inside the fixed loop) vs the "cowboy" bowline (with the tail outside the fixed loop).

Here's a picture of a dressed and set fig-8 on bight (though it doesn't show the tail):
Image

And here is a picture of an incorrectly tied fig-8 on bight on a tensionless hitch (you can see the tail working it's way loose from the knot):
Image
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Postby Scott McCrea » Jan 3, 2006 11:09 pm

In the picture with the red rope, which end should be the tail?
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Postby RescueMan » Jan 3, 2006 11:43 pm

Scott McCrea wrote:In the picture with the red rope, which end should be the tail?


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