French Cave Boots

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Postby tangled_slinky » Oct 26, 2005 9:59 pm

there's an option to imbed a reflective logo on the sides of the tall boots. ooh, the little :kaver: or :bat sticker:, transformed. magically. with gnomes. :-) ...i lust after these.

~
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Postby caverdoc » Oct 28, 2005 10:43 pm

My French boots are the short lace-ups. I don't think Mark imports the taller ones.
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Postby Cheryl Jones » Oct 28, 2005 11:12 pm

I checked out a pair at the Tag Cave-In, and wasn't convinced that the very flexible sole would work well on rough underground terrain or for climbing. It seems that the soles would bend and torque like a athletic shoe.

How do they climb? How are they on narrow ledges? How are they for walking on sharp and angled rocks? It seems that your foot is bending and twisting with every step, which sounds to me like a pretty tired foot at the end of the day.

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Postby STLCaver » Nov 1, 2005 7:46 pm

The boots do fine on sharp angled rock. They are like Beta boots only with tread. I found them to be almost like rock climbing shoes as far as climbing goes. They are sticky. I even wear them hiking, playing in the creek, or ridge walking. The BEST caving boot I have found. Tony
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Socks

Postby Hatch » Nov 3, 2005 12:51 pm

Is there enough room in these boots to comfortably wear thick socks along the lines of say Smartwool expedition and such?

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Postby Mark620 » Nov 5, 2005 9:05 am

Hatch,

Size your foot with the thick sock on and there will be enough room.
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Postby Scott McCrea » Nov 19, 2005 9:34 am

Below is a thread about these boots from the previous NSS Discussion Board. The thread is not complete, since I deleted the off topic posts and some posts were not archived/cached by Google.

If you would like to find other threads/posts from the previous NSS DB go here: LINK

wendy 01-01-2005 02:18 AM
caving boots

When I was at TAG this year there were some french caving boots on display and a website listed, but I can't remember what it was. Does anyone know what I am talking about? They were black, kinda rubbery looking boots.

Thanks!
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madratdan 01-01-2005 02:14 PM

Welcome to the discussin board Wendy. Could it have been a LaCrosse boot that you saw? Here is a link to that type of boot.

http://www.northlandmarine.com/LaCr...otsQuikRef.html
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Scott McCrea 01-01-2005 02:42 PM
No, they're not LaCrosse. I don't remember what brand they are, but Mark Joop sells them. He's in the Members Manual, Tennessee. Or email me and I'll send you his email address. They are nice boots, btw. :cool:
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Ralph E. Powers 01-01-2005 02:59 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by madratdan
Welcome to the discussin board Wendy. Could it have been a LaCrosse boot that you saw? Here is a link to that type of boot.
http://www.northlandmarine.com/LaCr...otsQuikRef.html
The Adirondack and Iceman look pretty good for caving. Wish can see the soles better though. Want to see if they're big lugs for dat cave mud.
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bodean9 01-01-2005 05:53 PM
Mark Joop

I emailed Mark Joop for you. He should be contacting you soon.

Gary Collins
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wendy 01-01-2005 06:44 PM
cool thanks. I really need better caving boots, as all I have right now are old desert storm combat boots.
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cavescom 01-02-2005 01:55 AM
The boots that we use and love are wellies that are made by Servus. They are available at Tractor Supply Stores....they are black with gray sole and a yellow stripe around the sole(steel toe).....$25 incredibly comfortable and great in all conditions we have used them in.
Another boot by Servus is this green Hazmat boot which is more expensive but great as well ...you can see it/order here http://tinyurl.com/2gwxm the extended steel shank makes the sole edges super for climbing steep muddy banks etc(with these boots you should order your normal shoe size).
The $25 boot listed above is much like the more expensive boot except for the boot material is slightly softer and the sole edges a tiny bit less agressive on slopes.
Mark Passerby, Caves.com
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cvr602 01-02-2005 05:34 PM
I use the French Caving boots sold by Mark Joop too. They are really tough and I have had no problems. Instead of laces to get in your wat, there isw a drawstring that tightens them up. It provides not having to tie your boots all the time. And the treading is very deep. I haven't had that much problem with mud banks and so on, at least not compared to BATA boots. Those things are slippery!!!

Tony
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Yvonne Droms 01-03-2005 02:08 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by cvr602
I haven't had that much problem with mud banks and so on, at least not compared to BATA boots. Those things are slippery!!!

I really like my Bata boots. They fit me fine and they last forever. They don't soak up any water and mud falls off of them (as any other rubber boot). But I have to agree with the problem of Bata boots not having the proper tread for mud banks. That is the biggest problem I have with them, especially when I need to traverse a mud slope: the sole does not grab the mud perpendicularly to the slope, so it's really easy to go flying sideways... I'd love to find boots just like the Bata boot (short boot that laces up) but with a more "luggy" sole. If anyone can point me to something like that, I'd appreciate. I don't really like tall rubber boots, for some reason.
Yvonne
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wendy 01-08-2005 11:23 PM
I'd like to tahnk everyone for their help. I had been lurking on this message board for sometime now, and you guys are the best. I am getting some boots from Mark Joop (thanks for his contact info).
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#14
01-09-2005, 01:27 AM
Tony Schmitt
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yo, I would like info on the boots as well. I HATE the Bata boot, way over rated for caving. I also do not like a high rubber boot. The bata would be perfect with a jungle boot sole. Are these french boots made for caving? Thanks in advance
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#15
01-09-2005, 01:49 AM
wendy
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Quote: Originally Posted by Tony Schmitt
yo, I would like info on the boots as well. I HATE the Bata boot, way over rated for caving. I also do not like a high rubber boot. The bata would be perfect with a jungle boot sole. Are these french boots made for caving? Thanks in advance

Here is a pic of the boot. I don't know if they are specifically made for caving, but they looked good for it when I saw a pair of them up at TAG. I'll e-mail Mark and tell him some folks were asking about them on here, so maybe he will want to join in the conversation. And of course once I get mine and go caving in the I will post a review.

Tony I will send you his e-mail adress via PM
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#17
01-10-2005, 02:49 AM
Cheryl Jones
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Cool! Thanks for the pic. What does the sole look like? Is it a deep lug? Is the sole/last stiff/firm rather like a hiking boot? Does it have a shank through the arch? Questions, questions.
Thanks.
Cheryl Jones
NSS Director
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#18
01-10-2005, 03:45 AM
oldmustangjunkie
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Quote: Originally Posted by Cheryl Jones
Cool! Thanks for the pic. What does the sole look like? Is it a deep lug? Is the sole/last stiff/firm rather like a hiking boot? Does it have a shank through the arch? Questions, questions. Thanks.

The lug is very deep and consists of several large squarish lugs, which are deeper at the back than front. The sole is very flexible and does not contain a steel shank. The boot is made completely of rubber. I feel a quality comfort insole is imperative for this boot and I wouldn't recommend it for above ground travel. I know I'm making these boots sound horrible (and they are to some degree) but they are the best caving boot I've ever owned and the second set I've purchased from Joop. The first set was bit better. It didn't lace up as high and the angle from which the laces left the "collector" was steep enough to keep the laces from slowly loosening. I now have a set like the ones pictured above and I have to tie a loose knot after the collector to keep the laces tight. Also, I think you should have the top two rivets on each side replaced by your local shoe repair shop as the inside heads of the rivets are too small for the tension placed on them and will pull out. When this happens, you have an even bigger hole and a harder time getting a larger rivet to stay in. I had the rivets put in mine after the ones it came with ripped out and they didn't last many trips afterward. The repairman told me if they had been replaced from the beginning the problem would not have been so severe. As I said earlier, this sounds bad, but these boots are hands (feet?) down the best caving boots ever!!!
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#19
01-10-2005, 03:46 AM
wendy
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Quote: Originally Posted by Cheryl Jones
Cool! Thanks for the pic. What does the sole look like? Is it a deep lug? Is the sole/last stiff/firm rather like a hiking boot? Does it have a shank through the arch? Questions, questions. Thanks.

sadly i don't know anything about the boot itself, i just saw some on display at TAG. I e-mailed Mark and told him about this thread so maybe he will log on and answer your questions. When I get mine I will take some photos of them and post a little review on how they held up.
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#20
01-18-2005, 01:28 AM
Mark Joop
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Gary and Wendy informed me that there was a thread on this discussion board about caving boots and inquiries about the French caving boots I sell, so I thought I would respond to let inquiring minds know more about these boots and how to purchase them.

The boots are manufactured by Etche Securite in Mauleon, France. Their website is http://www.etchesecurite.com. Their main clientele are industrial workers, miners, firemen, electricians, nuclear power workers, etc. However, the owners are also cavers, who have adapted a line of rubber boots for caving. I found them by doing a Google search for "cave boots", and they had a link to a webpage on a caving expedition in Patagonia that they were involved in. I was searching for an all-rubber, or rubber-nylon boot that would take the abuses that are unique to caving. I found out early in my caving career that boots with leather just do not stand up to the constant wet/dry cycles (either from wet caving or hosing off the mud). Leather too quickly becomes dry and cracks, and is eventually unmanagable and uncomfortable, and the stitching rots. High maintenance techniques can delay that process, but the outcome is inevitable. I realized, like most European cavers, that rubber is the material of choice, and that I could walk through water and mud and not worry about my boots. And they clean up easily and dry quickly. So after I tried a pair of these French boots (originally the Mic Clark, but the new and improved version is called the Mic Canyon [not pictured or described yet on their website]), I liked them so much that I started to import them for caver friends, because there did not appear to be any boots on the American market to rival them. I have caved with these boots in all sorts of cave environments, and they have not let me down.

Unlike other rubber boots, the sole of these French boots has very deep lugs and is made of a slip-resistent Dupont rubber. The lug sole configuration is patented, designed to provide adhesion on inclined planes, even when muddy. The cleats in the middle of the arch are designed to provide adhesion and better comfort when climbing ladders (which also works for foot stirrups when climbing rope). The heel can absorb over 20 joules. The sole is molded to the upper rubber body as a single piece (no stitches). The boots come unlined, which is perfect for caving, as there is no interior fabric that retains water. The boots can be hosed off, inside and out, allowed to drip-dry, and in 20 minutes they are ready for your next caving trip. To compensate for no lining, I use good atheletic sole inserts for arch support and comfort, and thick hiking socks, or neoprene booties for long wet caving trips. If my inserts get wet from walking in water, I have another pair to switch out while they are drying. The boots have a red nylon, water-resistent tongue, and lace up tight around the leg just above the ankle. Instead of tying a knot, they come with a push-button sliding lock. If you prefer a wellie (tall rubber boot with no laces, and less expensive), they come with the same sole, with heights up to 350 mm (measured from inside the boot).

If you could buy these boots in France, they would cost you less than $35 (currently). But the shipping costs raise the price to almost double that figure if purchased individually. So what I do is buy in bulk (Etche gives me a discount on shipping by doing so), and I spread the shipping costs out by dividing by the number of boots ordered, and pass this savings on to the caver. Eventually I hope to start a high-tech caving equipment company (ask me someday about my light system) and sell these boots for a little profit, but for now I am introducing these great boots to the American caver and selling them at my cost, currently $55. If I have to mail the boots to you (as opposed to hand delivery at a caving event), I have to pass this shipping cost on to you as well ($6 to $10, depending on distance from Knoxville, TN). When you email me to let me know of your interests, I can send a .pdf picture of these boots.

The best way to fit you long distance (as oposed to trying them on in person) is to have you accurately trace your foot on paper and mail it to me. Unlike American shoe manufactures, Etche boots do not come in half sizes or multiple widths. The widths are proportional (for the average person) to the lengths, which does present a problem for women (small sizes) with wide feet. The boots come in whole centimeter sizes, from 24 cm to 48 cm. I measure the long axis of the trace, and determine which whole size would work best. I do not ask for payment up front because of the delay in getting the boots to you from France. Send payment when I notify you that they are in. If the boots do not fit to your liking, just mail them back and I can either send another size at my expense or tear up your check. I try to keep common-sized boots in stock, but they usually go quicker and I am left with the sizes on the ends of the bell curve. It usually takes about 2 weeks to get a shipment from France from the time Etche gets my check.

I hope this answers your questions.

Mark
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#21
01-19-2005, 01:06 AM
Mark Joop
Location: Knoxville, TN
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Post Etche boots with steel shank

Quote: Originally Posted by Cheryl Jones
Cool! Thanks for the pic. What does the sole look like? Is it a deep lug? Is the sole/last stiff/firm rather like a hiking boot? Does it have a shank through the arch? Questions, questions. Thanks.

Cheryl, Several cavers asked me early on about geting these boots with a steel toe and shank. Although Etche does make these boots with a steel toe and shank, they said that they do not export them very far due to high export/import taxes, making them cost-prohibitive. I personally have not felt a need for this kind of support while caving in these boots. The sole is so thick (about 1") that I have not felt rocks sticking me in the foot or bend drastically around a rock. But then again, I tend to place my steps such that I do not lose my balance or twist an ankle. I found that well-placed steps takes less energy and allows me to move more efficiently through the cave. These boots, being rubber, do not compare to stiff, leather hiking boots. They are not designed for hiking. If I have to hike a long way to get to a cave, I put my caving boots in a daypack (along with extra water and a change of shirt) and hike to the cave in hiking boots. I have been on many long cave trips and these boots have done me well, but caving is not like hiking.

I read Byran's post about the top eyelets popping out of the Mic Canyon boots. This is the first time I have heard about this, and will look into it. I have had eyelets come out of some people's early model of the Mic Clark boots. The rivets used initially did not have a wide enough flange on the back side, and would sometimes pull out with force. I complained and they changed the rivet to one with a wider flange. The new Mic Canyons have a whole new eyelet design, which looked to me to be a better design. I have to confess that the Mic Canyons are so new that I haven't bought myself a pair yet (though I tried them on), as I am waiting for my old Mic Clarks to wear out first. I cave almost every weekend and put these boots (which I wear exclusively) through hell (pushing and digging). I don't go through them as fast as Marion Smith, but I am on my second pair of Mic Clarks.
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#22
01-19-2005, 01:21 AM
oldmustangjunkie
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Mark,
The eyelets popped out on my first set of boots. I don't know if they were Mic Clark or Mic Canyon. They were the ones with the gravel guard at the top. I decided to get my new boots done the same way because the only thing that keeps me from using the first set of boots I got from you is the missing eyelets/busted rivets issue and I didn't want these boots to go out the same way. A very good boot and they really don't bother me to walk above ground in them. The best cave boot for the price.
Bryan

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mark Joop's contact info

Postby caver53396 » Dec 28, 2005 1:26 pm

Anybody happen Mark's contact info? I get busy when I get home and keep forget to look it up in the MM. If you can, email me at caver53396 "at" insightbb "dot" com.

Thanks
Mark
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Re: mark Joop's contact info

Postby wendy » Dec 28, 2005 4:52 pm

caver53396 wrote:Anybody happen Mark's contact info? I get busy when I get home and keep forget to look it up in the MM. If you can, email me at caver53396 "at" insightbb "dot" com.

Thanks
Mark


I sent you Mark's e-mail address.
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Joop boot question

Postby randojl » Dec 29, 2005 12:45 am

Neophyte question: The Joop Boot rubber material certainly seems appropriate and the lug sole sounds good, but I'm wondering about knee-deep-plus water. Based on the description it doesn't sound like these boots drain, so how comfortable can water-filled boots be? I have an ancient pair of Danner Ft. Lewis boots that are quite good for caving in up to ankle-deep water, but that Gore-Tex liner does a great job of holding in water from deeper crossings unless I hang myself or the boots upside down. Military surplus jungle boots have drain eyelets in the instep and have worked better for me in wet caves where thigh-deep water alternates with beaches and breakdown, especially when used with Seal Skinz waterproof socks and wool liner socks. Am I missing something with the Joops?
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Postby wendy » Dec 29, 2005 7:16 am

You are right, in that the Joop boots do not have any drain holes. I was recently in neck deep water in a cave with them, so yes they filled up with water. Once out of the water, I just sat down and turned my foot up so the water, not really poured out, as there wasn't that much in there, but just came out. Yes my socks were wet, but that would have been the case wtih any boots that I was wearing. Honestly I didn't think that it was that big a deal and didn't even think about my squishy socks the rest of the trip.
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Postby Seamus Decker » Mar 19, 2007 4:51 pm

I looked around that French site (the English version) and wound up looking at the Novesta boots. The Fireman's boots look quite good.

I've worn steel-toe, steel-shank Bata Wellington boots for years. In fact, I still wear the same pair that have been used for at least 5 maybe 10 years. We're talking scores of trips. The hold up well to the abrasion from rock. The issue raised by randojil about draining can be slightly annoying (they fill up with water) but as Wendy said, you just turn them up and they mostly drain out. Slip them off and they drain completely.

The one problem with the Bata Wellingto is the sole is not very aggressive, as in the lugs are not sharp edged, and as they wear they get increasingly rounded off. They are fine on rock that is not slick, but once you get smooth rock, or smooth packed mud, it is like wearing a pair of ice skates.

Are these "Joop boots" actually made by Mark or what? What model are you guys talking about?
"Sittin' in a cave as black as midnight,
Cause I got a brand new plastic Justrite
Oozing off the front of my hard hat."
_Plastic Justrite_ Cave Ballad by Barb MacLeod (1973)
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Postby caverdoc » Mar 19, 2007 5:57 pm

The Joop boots are French-made Mic Canyon boots that he imports.
Got a pair, love them, want to get a second pair before he stops importing them!
Dr K
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Re: Joop boot question

Postby driggs » Mar 19, 2007 6:12 pm

randojl wrote:Neophyte question: The Joop Boot rubber material certainly seems appropriate and the lug sole sounds good, but I'm wondering about knee-deep-plus water. Based on the description it doesn't sound like these boots drain, so how comfortable can water-filled boots be? I have an ancient pair of Danner Ft. Lewis boots that are quite good for caving in up to ankle-deep water, but that Gore-Tex liner does a great job of holding in water from deeper crossings unless I hang myself or the boots upside down. Military surplus jungle boots have drain eyelets in the instep and have worked better for me in wet caves where thigh-deep water alternates with beaches and breakdown, especially when used with Seal Skinz waterproof socks and wool liner socks. Am I missing something with the Joops?


Do not poke holes in your Joop Boots for drainage!

A - uh, guy that I know - did that to help drain water out of his Joops since 3/4 of the caves in WV have ankle-height or higher stream passages. After 5 or 6 caving trips in the modified boots, the "drain holes" became "drain slots" and then "drain rips". Shoo Goo could not reverse the damage. I - err, he - now caves in knee-high generic wellies but really misses the amazing traction and better ankle support of the Joop Boots.

If Mark could import the wellie version, I'd buy two pair ASAP.
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Postby Seamus Decker » Mar 19, 2007 6:24 pm

Boots

This one in the link below has a great tread, much like the U.S. military jungle boot tread (which is IMO _the best_ type of sole for a caving boot). The upper is neoprene and it looks like it has abrasion resistant lowers. Not sure if it has anything like a steel toe or steel shank. At $120 it is a bit steep.

http://www.gemplers.com/footwear/rubber/139295.html

The following two are interesting

Forest Green Manitoba or the New Mossy Oak Break-up Manitoba

http://www.rangerboots.com/catalog.php?cPath=27

Not sure about these zippers though. That could be dead I no time with some silt in it.

Also the Northerner Max sounds interesting

http://www.northernerboots.com/catalog.php?cPath=24

http://www.gemplers.com/safety/personal ... 75120.html

But again, no idea if they have the steel toe or shank. I’ve inquired with all these manufacturers as to greater details on the steel toe and steel shank.

I'm quite interested in the

N 38 162 - FIREMASTER

http://www.novesta.cz/en/index.htm

That one DEFINTELY is tough enough for caving, and has a decent tread. But I don’t know if they have a retailer or distributor in North America, and those handles at the top might be a bit problematic in crawls with lots of grabbies and hookies.

For an inexpensive basic Wellington rubber boot sort of thing this one

http://www.gemplers.com/footwear/rubber/139059.html

has a remarkably aggressive-looking tread. There is also a steel-toe variety of that Brown Bear, but I doubt the sole is tough enough for me. I want something with a very tough sole that a sharp edged boulder cannot bruise my foot through.

How does this "Mic Canyon" thing compare to any of these?
"Sittin' in a cave as black as midnight,
Cause I got a brand new plastic Justrite
Oozing off the front of my hard hat."
_Plastic Justrite_ Cave Ballad by Barb MacLeod (1973)
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