Moderator: Tim White
ek wrote:Are belay plates/Sticht plates, such as the Black Diamond ATC and the Petzl Reverso safe to use for belaying (single person loads) on (possibly wet and/or muddy) cave rope?
How about the auto-braking functionality for belaying from above that some of the newer devices, like the Reverso and the ATC Guide, have? Is that safe for use for belaying single-person loads on cave rope in cave conditions?
Finally, how about the Petzl Grigri?
paul wrote:Sticht plates and similar designs depend entirely on being able to pull the rope at 180 degrees to the direction of the rope being belayed so need to be in front of the belayer and there must be enough room to bring the controlling hand back in order to bring the rope 180 degrees away from the belayed rope.
chrismc wrote:Ah yes, I completely missed the "belaying" part of your question. All said, I guess I'd have to attack the validity of the test case. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "sport caving loads". In my experience, there is not a need for an "active" belayer in SRT. There is a bottom belayer when one is rappelling, but when one is climbing there is not a belayer. This isn't to say that there couldn't be, but the general consensus among people I've ever caved with is that if you are going to ascend a rope, you know what you are doing. Having a second belay line could be disastrous for some long, gnarly drops with rope tangling issues. The only other situation I could see is an exposed traverse, which I would handle with a horizontally anchored work positioning, or safety line which would enable connection to your QAS. What exact usage did you have in mind?
I can't think of a good scenario where I would ever be taking a "fall" (FF anywhere close to 1.0) on caving rope.
FWIW, I have used a Figure-8 for belaying a lead climber (and catching a lead fall), and I have never heard that it shouldn't be used for that. It will go through more rope to catch a fall due to less friction, but it certainly does catch the fall. It probably catches it more smoothly and with less force than an ATC as well (due to running through more rope ). Obviously you have to watch how run-out your climber is, and make sure he has enough pro in to avoid hitting the deck, but certainly usable.
I also think that the auto-locking devices encourage laziness and inattentiveness among the belayer- a view that any trip to a climbing gym would encourage.
ek wrote:You'd want a belay when climbing a long ladder, or when you have one person who is adequately skilled to climb up natural feature, and others who feel uncomfortable climbing it without a belay.
ek wrote:Poor rigging could also cause you to experience a high fall factor due to the failure of one anchor component.
ek wrote:FWIW, I have used a Figure-8 for belaying a lead climber...
I've always been taught that this is a no-no...however, looking at Petzl's and Black Diamond's manufacturer recommendations, it appears that they're OK with their figure-8's being used to belay lead climbers.
I guess if belaying a leader with hip belay is considered safe, belaying with a figure-8 should be considered safe as well.
ek wrote:I am curious as to why you categorically avoid devices with moving parts. Racks, as well as bobbins with spring clips for inserting the rope, are rappel devices with moving parts...
chrismc wrote:I guess I'd view this as a safety issue.
While I fully acknowledge that different cavers have different skill sets and who feel comfortable in different situations, I don't have the same feeling about safety. If its a safety issue, I tend to view it in black & white. Either its safe or its not.
Is there exposure that could lead to an injury if an accident occured? If so, then precautions need to be taken.
Accidents aren't usually foreseen, so be trusting someone's judgement that they will not have an accident, you are setting up for an incident.
chrismc wrote:ek wrote:I am curious as to why you categorically avoid devices with moving parts. Racks, as well as bobbins with spring clips for inserting the rope, are rappel devices with moving parts...
While I have lots of answers for that (usually something about "more parts to break", "more things that can go wrong"), the truth is probably just a stubborn traditionalist ethic.
chrismc wrote:If there's a bolt placed right next to perfectly good natural pro, there's a good chance I'll remove that as well. One of my pet peeves is a beautiful crack climb marred up with a bolt ladder.
hunter wrote:Gri-gri is also tough. I've seen it used for TR belay in gyms but I wouldn't use it in a cave due to the dirt and grit. First, it's possible to jam a gri-gri with sufficient dirt. Second, there was an incident a while back where someone was being lowered with a gri-gri attached directly to an anchor and placed in the dirt.
I read about that incident. Not to split hairs too much... but if an "automatic" belay device like the GriGri, I'D, Cinch, SUM, etc is used properly, the device should be in a position where it is not resting on the wall/floor etc. The same applies with any belay device really. Plus the belayer's control hand (which always stays on the rope and is usually gloved in a cave environment) should effectively clean the rope of large debris before it has a chance to be fed into the device.
The GriGri, I think, is more forgiving of the handling properties of 11mm static rope than most tube/plate belay devices.
hunter wrote:Ek,
Minor point but ATC type devices are generally refered to as belay tube devices ( http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDev ... lates.html ). A belay plate is a different type and you don't see them much any more.
I've never seen it justified in the literature but for the scenario you describe an ATC should work fine. As long as it isn't 9mm the device will lock fine on static rope.
I've seen static used for TR only in climbing gyms with ATCs (and Gri-Gris).
NZcaver wrote:Of course if your standard caving descender is a Stop (or similar), you could just belay with that.
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