NZcaver wrote:David_Campen wrote:Yes, I understood the problem - the caver made the mistake of carrying a knife instead of an extra ascending device. She should have been carrying either a Prusik loop, Petzl Basic or some other ascending device in _addition_ to her footloop jammer and chest ascender.
Continuing to dig into this can of worms... technically the Frog system is a
2-ascender system, not a 3-ascender system.
Absolutely correct. Plus as I already said - there wasn't the time to start getting out spare jammers, Prusik loops or whatever and then sort out the jammed footloop: her priority was to get the hung-up caver off the rope. He had been hung-up for quite a long time, was becoming exhausted and complained of loss of feeling in his legs. Her footloop was jammed above her rendering her immobile. She had a knife so she cut her safety link, abandoned the footloop and jammer and rescued the stuck caver. In fact I'm not even sure she didn't have a spare jammer anyway - I wouldn't be surprised if she did. Far from resulting in a rescue situation (she is in fact a fellow member of the Cave Resue Team for this region of the UK and fellow Team members plus Team Controllers were full of praise for her quick actions). She managed to release the caver (
without using the knife
) and get the two of them safely to the bottom of the pitch.
If she hadn't got that knife - sure she could have sorted out the jammed footloop after some time - spare jammer or not. But, by that time, what condition would the stuck caver have been in?
NZcaver wrote:That said, many froggers consider it prudent to carry a spare ascender (or Prusik loop) and a small knife (or cutter/shears) - just in case. Why would you feel the need to choose one over the other, when clearly each can offer some solutions the other can't?
I do - but not everybody does. On vertical trips I always carry a spare jammer (a Croll - because it can be used in either position in a Frog setup in case of failure and still works as a spare jammer for hauling, Z-rigs, etc.), a Mini-traxion (combined puley and jammer - again for hauling, Z-rigs, etc,) and a Prusik loop. I use the Prusik loop with a larks foot to carry the knife - not around my neck but in a small bag along with the items listed above.
Scott McCrea wrote:Maybe we can come up with some practice techniques that might simulate these problems. Then we can all try them and figure out how to escape without cutting. Maybe we can all learn something.
Maybe we can come up with some practice techniques that might simulate these problems. Then we can all try them and figure out how to escape without cutting. Maybe we can all learn something.
Sure, that is an excellent idea. And we will all learn something.
But, I still maintain that a knife is an important piece of equipment and may prove just as vital as spare jammers. Prusik loops, etc. (if not more so) in some cases. The reason I started repling to this thread was in response to the point of view that you should NEVER carry a knife bcause it will be a dangerous thing to have around when on an SRT rope.
Of course I'm not advocating cutting everything in sight at every opportunity and at the slightest excuse - it should be a last resort. And we all agree that extreme caution should be exercised any time a knife is used when anywhere near an SRT rope. But there may be a time when no matter what you have practiced on the surface in controlled conditions when you have all the time in the world to ponder and try various alternatives, the only solution may be to cut the rope.
For example. A caver is mid-way up a pitch with multiple rebelays. He is knocked unconscious by falling rock. You are above him at th etop of the pitch and your priority is to get him off the rope within 10 minutes as he may fall victim to Harness Suspension Syndrome. You have a spare rope (possibly de-rigged from a long pitch further below in the system) which is more than long enough to reach the foot of the pitch.
Do you:
A) Ignore the spare rope (of course not). Then abseil down until you reach the tight section the unconscious caver is on and then change over to down-Prusiking and perform a mid-rope rescue? Not enough time. They could be dead in a very short time.
B) Abseil down on the spare rope and waste time performing a mid-rope rescue by connecting him to yourself via cowstails, releasing the caver's jammers and then descend to the bottom (remember - you only have 10 minutes! And you will have spent some time tying on the spare rope and abseiling down...).
c) Abseil down and then connect the two of you together via each other's cowstails, then get out that knife you always carry along with spare jammer, etc. and CAREFULLY make sure you have the correct rope (the one the unconscious caver is on) then release the caver by cutting his SRT rope and then descend together on yours?