Figure 8

[David Grimes]

I am planning on buying a few 8's to use as a loaner/backup descender. I have never used an 8 in a cave I am looking for input on what the best type to buy would be anodized, aluminum, or steel.

These will be mostly loaned to people without their own gear so I am not looking to go broke buying them either.

[wyandottecaver]

I very very highly recommend SMC Stainless decent control 8. it is small, durable, and easy to control. I have used many different 8's and this is the only one I kept. I still use it frequently for small pits.

[David Grimes]

I very very highly recommend SMC Stainless decent control 8. it is small, durable, and easy to control. I have used many different 8's and this is the only one I kept. I still use it frequently for small pits.

Do you know where the cheapest place to get them is? Also what they typically cost each?

[Cody JW]

Most people now prefer the small steel figure 8.I think they cost around 40 bucks. The alum. ones work fine but wear quick and leave particles on the rope.The alum. ones are cheaper.I use figure 8s all the time.I use them for anything in Indiana.They are nice and compact for multi drops.I recently went to Thunder Hole and my steel 8 worked fine.I normally use a rack for anything over 100 ft. or so.I am over 200 pounds and feel safe on an 8,I like the feel of the 8 better than a rack.I have a mini rack but do not feel safe on 4 bars unless I have the hyper bar engaged.If you ever do a pull down using both ends of the rope you will need a regular rack.I know some people do not like 8s but I have used them for over 20 years with no problem to me or the rope.They are much more compact to carry than a rack, but they do have limitations.

[wyandottecaver]

Here is on rope's site.
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:ExlEiEIXd3gJ:www.onrope1.com/store/index.php%3Fp%3Dcatalog%26parent%3D60%26pg%3D1+SMC+decent+control+8&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us

$40-50 seems to be the norm. a bit high, but well well worth it.

[David Grimes]

Most of the use for these 8's will come from people who do not do enough caving to see fit to buy their own gear so I can't see them getting allot of use but in order to get out more often I may need some bargaining power to get them to go such as "you can use my gear".

I have been told that cave mud take a heavy toll on aluminum but have never seen this effect personally but I have never used aluminum in a cave. I know aluminum wears allot faster but is significantly cheaper than stainless steel so I am trying to consider if I can justify spending the extra money for an item I probably will not be using.

[Ralph E. Powers]

Think of it this way. The expense of the steel eights gets outweighed by the wear. I've had mine for over 10 years and done at least several thousand feet of vertical/rappeling with them... you can just now start to see the wear. Thus... you buy this particular piece(s) and they'll last practically forever and in effect pay for themselves. You'd be saving money in the long run going this route and also t'wart any ire or refusal by those who refuse aluminum on their ropes.

[David Grimes]

Think of it this way. The expense of the steel eights gets outweighed by the wear. I've had mine for over 10 years and done at least several thousand feet of vertical/rappeling with them... you can just now start to see the wear. Thus... you buy this particular piece(s) and they'll last practically forever and in effect pay for themselves. You'd be saving money in the long run going this route and also t'wart any ire or refusal by those who refuse aluminum on their ropes.

Very true and a very good point. I was forgetting about aluminum residue left on the rope mentioned earlier and really did not think about people not wanting it on their rope. That would be terrible to invite someone on a trip and then have them not be able to use the rope.

Guess they will just have to wait in the car lol.

[mgmills]

Most of the use for these 8's will come from people who do not do enough caving to see fit to buy their own gear so I can't see them getting allot of use but in order to get out more often I may need some bargaining power to get them to go such as "you can use my gear".

I know your question is about gear but think about training.

What sort of training to you plan to give these people and how do you plan to get them back up what they rappel down?

Personally, I wouldn't take more than one person with "limited training" on a caving trip and I'd have several good vertical cavers along. If you are taking more than one "limited training" person with only one or two trained cavers they in my opinion you are asking for trouble. Maybe not right away but eventually trouble will find you.

How much experience do you have in teaching others about rappelling and climbing?

Not trying to discourage you but you need to think about more than just having the gear available.

[David Grimes]

I would not take anyone who is not familiar with using the equipment. Everyone I had in mind when posting this are competent and would need little if any instruction and I am not experienced enough to give them proper instruction in allot of categories and I would not go without other cavers that are more experienced than I. When I worded the first post I was kind of thinking of 2 people in particular but I also have people who are active cavers who generally have to borrow gear and do not have the funding to purchase it right away and I was figuring I would be generous enough to use my own money to help them out and get myself in caves more often.

As far as getting up the rope I am assembling a couple frog systems but I am more familiar with the equipment needed for them. I have not used an 8 in a cave environment and was just looking for input on them as they would provide a safe and less expensive way to descend when there really is not much you can do to reduce the cost of a safe frog system.

[ek]

How far *have* you managed to reduce the cost of a safe frog system (including the sit harness)? I can think of different frog systems with differences in cost spanning significantly more than the cost difference between a cheap Figure 8 and a Petzl Simple. (And a *cheap* Figure 8 costs less than $10...)

In particular, there is over a $50 range in prices for sit harnesses with low attachment points; the chest harness is non-load-bearing can be a piece of webbing that has been retired due to age with a hardware store buckle sewn on; and the third (backup) ascender, if desired, can be replaced with a loop of 7mm accessory cord.

[Ralph E. Powers]

I would not take anyone who is not familiar with using the equipment. Everyone I had in mind when posting this are competent and would need little if any instruction and I am not experienced enough to give them proper instruction in allot of categories and I would not go without other cavers that are more experienced than I. When I worded the first post I was kind of thinking of 2 people in particular but I also have people who are active cavers who generally have to borrow gear and do not have the funding to purchase it right away and I was figuring I would be generous enough to use my own money to help them out and get myself in caves more often.

As far as getting up the rope I am assembling a couple frog systems but I am more familiar with the equipment needed for them. I have not used an 8 in a cave environment and was just looking for input on them as they would provide a safe and less expensive way to descend when there really is not much you can do to reduce the cost of a safe frog system.

I've experience taking inexperienced people caving and vertical caving at that. I do my best to ensure everyone has their own gear and has had practiced adequately enough (meaning gone up several times and at least two change-overs--- all above ground) before taking them to a real cave.
Now granted new comers aren't going to have their own personal gear, but I've managed to accumulate enough "hard-ware" and software to accommodate at least three people.
Having to pass gear back and forth has been in my past experience not the greatest thing to do... even in a beginner cave. This is for a number of reasons that I won't go into here.
Kudos to you and your desire to introduce the interested into caving. But do it right... (in our opinion anyway), go to the nearest grotto and ask for assistance and look for those who have extra gear. You'll undoubtedly will find several grotto members who fit the bill.

[David Grimes]

In particular, there is over a $50 range in prices for sit harnesses with low attachment points; the chest harness is non-load-bearing can be a piece of webbing that has been retired due to age with a hardware store buckle sewn on; and the third (backup) ascender, if desired, can be replaced with a loop of 7mm accessory cord.

You are correct I was more thinking in the terms of ascenders which in my experience are generally around the same price for most reputable brands. I also make my own chest harnesses already so that is good advice but not an issue in my case. I could definitely save money on seat harnesses I was actually looking at the GGG caving harness for them but I have plenty of time to shop around. I really appreciate all the advice on this issue and it sounded like I am doing all this at once but I really meant it as an overtime project as running out and buying it now would tend to get a little expensive.

Kudos to you and your desire to introduce the interested into caving. But do it right... (in our opinion anyway), go to the nearest grotto and ask for assistance and look for those who have extra gear. You'll undoubtedly will find several grotto members who fit the bill.

I totally agree and I do know more than a few people in my area that do have extra gear they are willing to loan on a trip. I have also personally practiced on a practice rig with the people I had in mind that would be using my extra gear so they are not unfamiliar in any way with the gear just a couple of them have not used it in a cave environment but also those will be the least likely to go vertical caving but maybe one day they will want to. I do not have allot of experience in several areas of vertical caving so if I am doing any vertical caving I definitely go with someone far more experienced than I.

[Ralph E. Powers]

Kudos to you and your desire to introduce the interested into caving. But do it right... (in our opinion anyway), go to the nearest grotto and ask for assistance and look for those who have extra gear. You'll undoubtedly will find several grotto members who fit the bill.

I totally agree and I do know more than a few people in my area that do have extra gear they are willing to loan on a trip. I have also personally practiced on a practice rig with the people I had in mind that would be using my extra gear so they are not unfamiliar in any way with the gear just a couple of them have not used it in a cave environment but also those will be the least likely to go vertical caving but maybe one day they will want to. I do not have allot of experience in several areas of vertical caving so if I am doing any vertical caving I definitely go with someone far more experienced than I.

That's great to know... because it'd suck having to read anything about a group getting fubared in the ACA ... so nice to know won't have to worry about that!

[ian mckenzie]

Of course, the chief drawback of a figure eight descender is that it puts a twist in the rope when descending, meaning that your subsequent ascent can be spinny as the rope untwists. I think this is the principal reason that more cavers don't use it.