helmet purchasing advice

Discuss caving lights, packs, helmets, clothing, etc.
For rope and vertical equipment, go to the On Rope! forum.
Cave electronics enthusiasts can also visit the Communications and Electronics Section forum.

Moderator: Moderators

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Jul 2, 2007 8:38 am

The Elios is very different than a bike helmet. The Elios actually has a hard shell.


Yep, that's why I said "glorified" bike helmet. The "hard" shell is actually quite thin and pliable, not nearly as tough as a Roc or Vertex.

The elios is becoming popular with cavers and I wonder what others think about that. To me, it seems like a compromise helmet, lighter but not as safe as a suspension helmet. I would bet that a good construction hard hat would offer better impact protection. I'm no expert, would someone with physics know-how or someone who manufactures helmets like to chime in?

When I was getting geared up as a new caver, I was taught that you need a suspension to protect your head (and neck) from the force of falling rock impact. This is especially important in vertical caving where you could get hit from far above. The empty space between the plastic and your head provides a crush zone to absorb impact. The suspension rigging absorbs force as well.

To me, the Elios looks like something that is safe for rock climbers and perhaps horizontal cavers, but I wouldn't wear one in a pit with rockfall potential. If you cave long enough, you will encounter whistling rockfall in pits, and it can be a scary thing. I want the best protection I can get in that situation. I've seen rocks bounce off of people's helmets from 90 feet above. The hard plastic makes quite a sound.

And don't say that people shouldn't be in a position to get hit. Even with "on rope off rope" it DOES happen.
Andy Armstrong
American Carbide Council
User avatar
Anonymous_Coward
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 895
Joined: Feb 3, 2006 1:40 pm
Location: Inside the Beehive
NSS #: 45993RL FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Paha Sapa Grotto
  

Postby gillip » Jul 2, 2007 9:10 am

I found an interesting article: "HELMETS - Off-center Impacts" By Mark Taylor posted on the NSS website:
http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/n ... lmets.html

Here are some of the highlights
"Thick foam/hard shell - With these helmets the foam is concentrated around the crown, and thins out towards the edges or simply stops. Again the foam is the main energy absorber, and as it is thinner at the edges, the transmitted force is much greater for an impact in these areas than one where the foam is thickest.

Traditional - The main energy-absorbing component in these helmets is the textile webbing cradle, and the crucial clearance distance between this and the shell. This webbing is anchored to the shell at the rim, which means that the nearer the rim an impact occurs, the lower the energy absorption will be - in this case the force transmitted is over four times the maximum allowed for a comparative crown impact by the EN standard.

For general rock climbing, you should be looking for a lightweight helmet that offers good all round protection (i.e. from impacts from all sides) with good ventilation to help keep the old noggin cool. Modern foam/shell combinations are a good choice.

For alpine and ice climbing, good top impact performance is more important along with good resistance to penetration from sharp falling objects. Traditional shell/cradle models are more appropriate for this use.

(Ed. Note: for caving choose either a traditional hard-shelled or a modern thick foam/hard-shelled helmet, NOT a soft-shelled helmet)

* (Ed. Note: thick foam/soft-shelled helmes are not suitable for caving due to easy damage to the soft-shelled covering!)"

Also, from the British Mountaineering Council website:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1623
"Picking a helmet
All the evidence shows that in the event of a strike to the head, the wearing of any helmet can greatly reduce the severity of injury. Given this, the single most important criteria when choosing a helmet is that you actually like it and feel comfortable wearing it. What is the point in buying the best performing helmet going if it’s uncomfortable and you hate wearing it? As well as finding a comfortable helmet, it’s worth understanding the basic differences between the various types of on the market:

Traditional hard shell:
The main energy-absorbing component in these helmets is the textile webbing cradle and the size of the crucial clearance distance between this and the shell. The webbing is anchored to the shell at the rim, which means that the nearer the rim an impact occurs the lower the energy absorption will be. This problem is often compounded as the clearance between the shell and the cradle is usually much less towards the rim of the helmet.

- Good for impact performance on the crown of the helmet (e.g. rock or ice fall).
- Less good for side impacts more common in fall situations.
- Score the best result for resistance to penetration from sharp objects.
- More suitable for alpine or mountain routes.
E.g. HB Olympus, Petzl Ecrin Roc.

Thick foam/soft shell:
Energy absorption comes from the thickness of the foam. If the foam is a consistent thickness throughout the design the helmet will be equally effective wherever the impact occurs. Examine the design closely though, because if the foam gets much thinner towards the rim, there will be the same loss of performance in side impacts as with traditional designs.

- Lightweight and with good side impact performance
- Less good in the penetration tests where localised pressures can build up.
- Often more easily damaged through misuse (stuffing into rucksacks)
- More suitable for general rock climbing where there is more concern about falling than rock fall.
- More likely to completely disintegrate in a major impact than traditional designs - not a major problem on a single pitch crag, but a cause for concern if you find yourself with several broken pieces on a big alpine route.
Eg. Cassin Astral, Grivel Cap.

Thick foam / hard shell:
A combination of the above two. The foam is concentrated around the crown and either thins out towards the edges or simply stops. Again the foam is the main energy absorber, and where it thins the transmitted force is much greater.
Depending on the exact nature of the design and the distribution and amount of foam, the performance of these designs may fall closer to one or other of the above types.
Eg Petzl Elios, Black Diamond Half Dome.

Top tip
A couple of articles in recent years have suggested the top tip of using the space between the cradle and the shell of a traditional helmet to store spare kit such as your headtorch, spare batteries, ski goggles first aid kit or bivvy bag. However it is precisely this space that gives these types of helmet their performance, and taping anything into them can severely reduce performance. Filling the space with anything solid removes almost all point in wearing the helmet. "


The Elios is listed as one of the modern, thick-foam, hard shell helmets, so it should be fine for caving. It seems the Elios offers better protection for side impact and sufficient protection from top impact. The Ecrin Roc is definately more durable, but after a *serious* impact, even an Ecrin should be retired. Also, a not on the Ecrin: don't put your Sten battery or other junk inside your helmet!
JAG

"I think we need more data..."
User avatar
gillip
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Apr 8, 2007 8:38 pm
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
  

Postby VACaver » Jul 2, 2007 10:36 am

I had an Elios and thought it was fine...at first. Nice and light, with a low profile.

I quickly learned that it had very poor ventilation and was quite hot on my head. I sold it shortly thereafter...
User avatar
VACaver
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Sep 25, 2005 5:31 pm
Location: SW Virginia
Name: Patrick
  

Postby adleedy » Jul 2, 2007 2:16 pm

VACaver wrote:I had an Elios and thought it was fine...at first. Nice and light, with a low profile.

I quickly learned that it had very poor ventilation and was quite hot on my head. I sold it shortly thereafter...


i have noticed that it can get a little warm, however not to the point where i cant deal with it, I love the light weight of this helmet, and have no problem trusting it to protect me.
Alan D. Leedy

E.R.V.K.E.T Life Member

SAVE CAVE RIVERS http://WWW.8RIVERSSAFEDEVELOPMENT.COM
User avatar
adleedy
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Dec 12, 2006 6:04 pm
Location: charleston, west virginia
Name: alan dwayne leedy
NSS #: 56663
Primary Grotto Affiliation: charleston grotto + ERVKET
  

Helmet - Sale on Ecrin Roc

Postby pacaver » Jul 2, 2007 5:33 pm

I just got an email from Karst Sports about a sale on Petzl Ecrin Rocs. Here's the link:

http://www.karstsports.com/10301.html
Kevin Dunleavy
York Grotto
MAKC
SCCI
NSS
pacaver
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 8:33 am
Location: Pennsylvania
NSS #: 47644
  

Re: Helmet - Sale on Ecrin Roc

Postby paoconnell » Jul 4, 2007 4:24 pm

pacaver wrote:I just got an email from Karst Sports about a sale on Petzl Ecrin Rocs. Here's the link:

http://www.karstsports.com/10301.html


Good helmets well suited for caving with a strong shell and good ventilation; I own two of them. I've also owned an Edelrid helmet that was also well suited for caving. :kewl:
Take nothing but pictures
Leave nothing but footprints
Kill nothing but vandals
User avatar
paoconnell
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Nov 7, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Albuquerque NM
NSS #: 13878RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Sandia Grotto
  

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jul 4, 2007 5:14 pm

sell me one! =)

after finding a store that had an indoor climbing wall but zero helmets (huh?) and another outdoor sports store that had gone out of business, i ran across a small store operating of a house that had TONS of gear crammed in there, including a Petzl Elios, a Petzl Ecrin Roc, and a Black Mountain Half Dome.

you guys are right about the suspension helmets - i don't know if i'd feel safe in an Elios or a Half Dome. even though i looked sillier in the Ecrin Roc, there was a clear difference in how much shock made it to my head when i thumped on it.
User avatar
Jeff Bartlett
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 948
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 12:19 am
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Name: Jeff Bartlett
NSS #: 59325
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Tennessee Cave Survey
  

Postby paoconnell » Jul 4, 2007 5:40 pm

xcathodex wrote:sell me one! =)

after finding a store that had an indoor climbing wall but zero helmets (huh?) and another outdoor sports store that had gone out of business, i ran across a small store operating of a house that had TONS of gear crammed in there, including a Petzl Elios, a Petzl Ecrin Roc, and a Black Mountain Half Dome.


Can't sell the Ecrin; it's my daughter's. Good reason to haunt climbing and/or caving oriented outdoor shops with helmets, or go to Convention and check out the speleovendors. And then there's the speleovendors' Websites...
Take nothing but pictures
Leave nothing but footprints
Kill nothing but vandals
User avatar
paoconnell
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Nov 7, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Albuquerque NM
NSS #: 13878RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Sandia Grotto
  

Previous

Return to Equipment Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron