French Cave Boots

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Postby Seamus Decker » Mar 19, 2007 6:48 pm

Here are some American firefighter boots

http://www.thefirestore.com/store/categ ... nsulation/

They would definitely be steel toe steel shank, and I like the way the soles look, i.e., flat not curved up at the toe. The description of the lug / tread shape sounds promising, but I'd prefer to see an actual image. Not sure about whether I'd prefer shoe-fit or "traditional fit." Those pull on straps might be annoying in the crawls with lots of grabbies, but with this design, you could cut them off if they got too annoying.
"Sittin' in a cave as black as midnight,
Cause I got a brand new plastic Justrite
Oozing off the front of my hard hat."
_Plastic Justrite_ Cave Ballad by Barb MacLeod (1973)
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Postby Seamus Decker » Mar 19, 2007 7:13 pm

OMG, this is hilarious

http://www.hotboots.com/bootinfo/tutorial.html

http://www.hotboots.com/

I bet those guys could give you some suggestions on durable boots . . . well actually might know more about aesthetics I guess :woohoo:
"Sittin' in a cave as black as midnight,
Cause I got a brand new plastic Justrite
Oozing off the front of my hard hat."
_Plastic Justrite_ Cave Ballad by Barb MacLeod (1973)
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Postby Realms » Mar 19, 2007 11:41 pm

thanks man....now i know more than i want to about more boots that i will probably never use. serious site. yep pretty funny. can you see yourself caving in some of those. heh heh would be fun to have a mix and match cave doll.........uh oh I said doll. lol :laughing:
never stop imagining what could someday come to pass...
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Postby VACaver » Mar 20, 2007 10:09 am

Seamus Decker wrote:Here are some American firefighter boots

http://www.thefirestore.com/store/categ ... nsulation/

They would definitely be steel toe steel shank, and I like the way the soles look, i.e., flat not curved up at the toe. The description of the lug / tread shape sounds promising, but I'd prefer to see an actual image. Not sure about whether I'd prefer shoe-fit or "traditional fit." Those pull on straps might be annoying in the crawls with lots of grabbies, but with this design, you could cut them off if they got too annoying.


If you've ever had a pair of firefighter boots on your feet, you'd NEVER even think of caving in them...talk about HEAVY!!! :shock:
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Postby Seamus Decker » Mar 20, 2007 12:11 pm

Thanks VACaver. That is QUITE helpful!

I got a response back from Altama

Thank you for contacting ALTAMA. We greatly appreciate the feedback and could not be happier that you have been so pleased with our product. We wish we made a boot that could address all of your needs but, unfortunately, we do not. All of our boots are constructed with full-grain leather or suede. With the exception of the sole, rubber is not a component that we incorporate into our construction method. However, we will keep your email and bring your suggestions to the attention of the President during our next product meeting. In the meantime, we encourage you to try a pair of the 6852's or the 4155's. Although they are leather and may show wear/scuffs after several caving expeditions, we feel that they will continue to provide you with the durability and functionality that you are looking for. Please let us know if you have any further questions or concerns.


Thanks,

Customer Service
ALTAMA Footwear



-----Original Message-----
From: Seamus Decker
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 8:53 PM
To: Altama Customer Service
Subject: Boots for Caving

I am a caver, mostly in Kentucky and Tennessee. I've worn Bata Wellington boots for many years for caving.

I've worn the same steel-toed steel-shank pair of Bata Wellies for about at least 5 years (probably 100 cave trips or so totalling probably 2000 hours underground). I purchased these boots from a retailer in Atlanta that sells a variety of rubber products including hose and pipe

When I first started caving, I wore jungle boots, and I found that the "Panama" tread design, the vulcanized rubber soles, and the steel plate in your Altama mil-spec jungle boots were absolutely, by far and away THE BEST soles for caving. They are rigid and tough enough to proect the bottom of the foot from bruising, and sharp rock edges. They offer the ideal tread for traction on rock, mud, and packed mud, gravel, etc. However, the leather lowers always proved to be problematic. Once wet, that leather abraded quite rapidly from all the rubbing on sharp scratchy rock, and cobbles. Especially in the toes, these boots wore out too fast when used for wet caving, but were in all other respects absolutely IDEAL for caving. It was frustrating, and I loved those boots so much, I went so far as to sew inner tube rubber over the toes using nylon thread and a sewing awl after holes had begun to wear in the toes, and gravel and sand would get inside . . .

My Bata Wellies are finally worn enough that I want to replace them, but not actually "worn out." The tread on the soles is pretty rounded off, and there are small holes in the rubber covering the toes. Once you have been wading in deep water and the boots have some water inside water squirts out of these holes when you walk. Other than that they are still functional. However, the lack of aggressive wide-spaced lug sole tread was ALWAYS an issue with these boots even when they were brand new.

I would like something with a better sole than the traditional Wellies but with similar durability. A lug sole that approximated the U.S. military jungle boot sole

http://www.altama.com/Tp1/item_detail.a ... mCode=4155

or at least something like a typical hiking boot would be ideal. A puncture resistant, hard sole that retained the sharp angles of the lugs similar to the jungle boot would be ideal.

For example, the sole on this boot looks quite good for my purposes

http://www.gemplers.com/footwear/rubber/139295.html

But it does not appear to be steel toe, or steel shank, and I would bet money that the outers are not going to hold up to constant abrasion on wet sharp rocks and gravel like the Bata wellingtons do.


What I need is a boot similar to the Bata boot wellington in having an upper that is made of tough rubber so that it can stand up to abrasion against sharp, wet, scratchy rock (esp the toes), with a steel shank, and ideally a steel toe and about mid calf to knee height. Leather hiking boots are not suitable for caving because wet leather gets holes worn through it quite rapidly (esp the toes) and buying new boots every 15 or 20 cave trips gets expensive. Nylon boots similarly have a tendency to wear out, and ankle highs do not afford as much protection to the leg from sharp shin-biting rocks as do wellie type boots that go higher up and cover the entire lower leg in thick rubber.

Being waterproof is also not as important as durability because often times in caving, one wades in hip deep or even deeper water, so the boots fill up and function more like a wetsuit than a waterproof boot.

In any event, one or more models of your boots might be ideal to market to the caver community in the American East (Missouri, Illinois, KY, TN, Alabama, Georgia, West Virginia, Virgnia, NY, PN, etc.) where caves are often times cold and wet.

In summary, if you guys made a boot that had the basic jungle boot configuration in terms of ankle support, a jungle boot Panama sole, but with a Bata Wellington uppers (in being rubber, tall, and perhaps also being large enough to allow wearing a wetsuit and shin pads under the boots).

Best Regards
"Sittin' in a cave as black as midnight,
Cause I got a brand new plastic Justrite
Oozing off the front of my hard hat."
_Plastic Justrite_ Cave Ballad by Barb MacLeod (1973)
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Seamus Decker
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Postby Dwight Livingston » Mar 20, 2007 1:16 pm

Seamus Decker wrote:When I first started caving, I wore jungle boots, and I found that the "Panama" tread design, the vulcanized rubber soles, and the steel plate in your Altama mil-spec jungle boots were absolutely, by far and away THE BEST soles for caving. They are rigid and tough enough to proect the bottom of the foot from bruising, and sharp rock edges. They offer the ideal tread for traction on rock, mud, and packed mud, gravel, etc. However, the leather lowers always proved to be problematic. Once wet, that leather abraded quite rapidly from all the rubbing on sharp scratchy rock, and cobbles. Especially in the toes, these boots wore out too fast when used for wet caving, but were in all other respects absolutely IDEAL for caving.


Seamus, I agree completely. And your letter to Altima was a great try. I will send them a letter myself - not expecting much, but who knows what might happen. If they would just replace the leather with something durable, you'd have the perfect boot. Sorry Altima didn't respond more favorably.

I'm still caving in jungle boots. The pair I have now, I fortified with Aquaseal, and they are doing much better this time than with other modifications I've tried. The toecaps are on thick, done after just enough use to rough up the leather, applied by spending a long evening out on the deck flipping the boots every few minutes so the Aquaseal wouldn't run too far back or drip off the toe. I also glued the joints in the leather seams with Aquaseal, where the seams come together on the side, and that has worked really well so far. Those side-seam blowouts always did in my boots.

So that's working for me and I'll probably do it again with my next pair of boots. But jungle boots with synthetic lowers - that'd be great.

Dwight
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