Need help with algae.

[wendy]

Run that chemical by us again, shottheradio. Calcium I understand, but what's the other stuff?

hydrochlorite sounds dangerously close to hydrochloric acid--assuming your cave is wet... If so, you do need to neutralize it, or the salamanders won't be very happy--they might get burns, actually.

and hydrochloric acid dissolves limestone and shells and stuff, and created hydrogen gas, introduce a carbide lamp and boom, we got to do that in chemistry class in middle school

[BrianC]

He might have meant Calcium Hypochlorite= Granular chlorine 65%
or Sodium Hypochlorite= Liquid Bleach

[shottheradio]

oops,..it's not hydro,it's hypochlorite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_hypochlorite

[Teresa]

Thanks. Since it is the chlorine part which is the disinfectant, I'd make sure it was all cleaned up and rinsed. OTOH, I don't know how many skin-breathing salamander species you have in your cave--if you don't, this may not be as large an issue.

We have 3-4 species of lungless salamanders found in Missouri caves, (even show caves) so we're alway really careful.

[bill fish]

testing

[bill fish]

well shoot...

now things are working....darn haunted computer!

Anyhow....for algae have you consider the weak over the counter hydrogen peroxide?

It WILL kill any organics....it will break them down....and it will foam and bubble a bit....so when you rinse with clean water you can get alot the organic material outa the cracks and crannies of the formations....which will make it that much harder for the algae to regain a foot hold again...

Folks will tell you "but wait...H2O2 is a strong oxidizer" but it aint nothing compared to chlorine or acids...and besides...formations in a cave have had thousand of years in an oxygen environment to do just that...oxidize....with weak hydrogen peroxide, your just making the oxygen a little more available....as opposed to chlorine or acids where you are introducing a chemical that the cave rarely or never sees.....

Another plus for peroxide is that is is unstable...one it leaves the bottle and is exposed to air...or pretty much anything else like rocks. dirt etc....it just turns into water and some oxygen bubbles...so its not gonna linger and eat the formations or posion the wildlife....

This is only theorectical...for all I know in practice the stuff litterally dissolves formations.....but I'd bet that its probably the safest and most effective stuff all the way around...short of never having any light on the formations...

I'd suggest a test on some nearby rocks/outa the way formations first to make sure it does NO HARM.....and I'd bet it probably won't...but another thing to consider is that heavy growth on a formation is probably doing real damage as well..

Blll

[bill fish]

testing a bit

sorry!

[reeffish1073]

from my experience with various types of algae, you have to find the problem! as most have said lighting is the first. if you dont have to have the lighting on, turn it off! light feeds the algae, causing a bloom! the bloom is in part of the nutrient rich environment of the cave! in my reef tank i have to fix one of the two or both at times. watch feeding, change out lighting regularly so on so forth!. your best bet is to kill the lights when not giving a tour. as far as cleaning goes. there are pros and cons for all it sounds like. i would presonally start with s soft bristle brush and plain water! (elbo grease) this should remove it without any chemicles involved. then get more agressive from there! takeing some of the advise from folks above. check with the other show caves and see what works for them! as mentioned above there are a couple of other places with this problem. hope i was helpful somewhat. keep us posted on the problem, ide like to know what you did and if it worked for you.

john

[Teresa]

well shoot...


Anyhow....for algae have you consider the weak over the counter hydrogen peroxide?
<snip>

Blll

And, considering h202 at the pharmacy is a 3% solution already, and comes in pretty small bottles, how are most people going to get enough to disinfect an entire show cave, without spending a fortune? At higher concentrations, I would seriously suggest going online and reading the MSDS-- it's pretty nasty suff and requires special handling.

The bleach water solution I proposed is fairly widely used and well-accepted with proper precautions.

[bill fish]

Gawd..everyones a know it all critic....

I caint spell Ms T but you caint read...


"And, considering h202 at the pharmacy is a 3% solution already, and comes in pretty small bottles, how are most people going to get enough to disinfect an entire show cave, without spending a fortune?"

I said use the weak over the counter stuff...so what the deal with the already part?

Are we talking disinfecting 10000 square feet of smooth flowstone that a brillo pad would barely scratch....or we talking a handfull of delicate porous formations that anything other than a light water spray or careful tooth brush scrubbing would break?

I've used acid in caves to remove the outer layer of calcite to remove mud/paint/graffiti...and unless you collect pretty much ALL the runoff...you can smell the stuff for awhile after...and having done lots of cleaning at home with chlorox...I'd bet the same applies for it as well in a cave....so the stuff hangs around...not good for the wildlife and maybe not good for the fomations as well

Peroxide is unstable...contact with metals, organics, and often in trace amounts causes it to bubble...and breakdown quickly into water and oxygen.....both substances caves and critters are highly used too

Chlorines and acids are nasty things as just like high test H202 (ie something along 30 percent or higher concentrations as opposed to the 3 or so percent over the counter stuff)....and these are often chemicals caves/critters are NOT used too...

Shoot, weak peroxide you can GARGLE with....I sure would rather do that than weak acid or chlorine....heck you might even be able to drink it...but DONT!

I mainly suggest peroxide for several reasons...bubbles nicely with organics...BOTH lifting it from the surface AND outa cracks/voids....sterilizes as well...breaks down quickly...is safe to handle at low concentrations...and doesnt expose anyone or anything to that is in abundance....water and oxygen


Sterilizing AND getting all the organic residue off the formations is probably a good thing...as opposed to just sterilization....and I'd guess that there are circumstances where peroxide will work better than other methods..but this is just an educated guess...never dealt with algae in a cave...

" At higher concentrations, I would seriously suggest going online and reading the MSDS-- it's pretty nasty suff and requires special handling."

Maybe its just my roids and bad coffee this morning but this comes off as pretty condescending and pompass....first as ifffff I didnt know the high test stuff was nasty...and secondly, where the heck did I say use or get high test stuff in the first place?

Though to be honest I'd rather handle high test peroxide rather than ALOT of other stuff you can order from chem companies and have sent to your home....

Wonder how high strength the stuff is hair dressers use? "So easy even a hair dresser can use it?"

Sure the stuff taint free..and if your talking gallons and gallons of the crude the cost might add up....but shop around and you can probably get alot more than you think for alot less than you'd think...heck I often buy the stuff at the local shopping areas JUST to get a nice bottle outa the deal...its not like we are buying Jim Beans finest here....

Bahhhh....enough of this...time for more preparation H and warm coffee....

Blll

[Teresa]

Gawd..everyones a know it all critic....

I caint spell Ms T but you caint read...


"And, considering h202 at the pharmacy is a 3% solution already, and comes in pretty small bottles, how are most people going to get enough to disinfect an entire show cave, without spending a fortune?"

I said use the weak over the counter stuff...so what the deal with the already part?

<Snip>
Blll

And the point of my statement, which you apparently missed, was the *cost* of bottles and bottles of 3% H202. Hope you feel better-- I wasn't being critical of you personally. The only point of bringing up the concentrated stuff was that using it and diluting your own might bring the cost down if someone were to try it.
good caving
Teresa

[BrianC]

The use of H2O2 is interesting though! One thing comes to mind would be the quick oxidation might affect any formations with original oxides of Iron, Manganese etc. causing some very different colors ,and permanently changed! Or going back with hydrochloric acid to remove the change ,then you are worse off than when you started. I would like to try this on some Quarry limestone formations outside of the pristine cave environment!Hydrogen Peroxide at 27-35% can be purchased from any swimming pool store for about $16.00 a gallon!

[bill fish]

"The use of H2O2 is interesting though! One thing comes to mind would be the quick oxidation might affect any formations with original oxides of Iron, Manganese etc. causing some very different colors ,and permanently changed!"

I don't think thats an issue.....if something is ALREADY "oxidized"....you basically are NOT going to "reoxidize" it with something else....unless "maybe" your new oxidizer is way more oxidizing that what its already oxidized with......and given that most very likely anything oxidized in cave was oxidized with oxygen in the FIRST place...the "free" oxygen in the H2O2 should pose no threat at all....

"Or going back with hydrochloric acid to remove the change ,then you are worse off than when you started. I would like to try this on some Quarry limestone formations outside of the pristine cave environment!Hydrogen Peroxide at 27-35% can be purchased from any swimming pool store for about $16.00 a gallon!"

Again...I contend that peroxide in low concentrations is most likely LESS worse than any other way than perhaps just nothing but alot of plain old water......and you really need to use alot of that for a final rinse no matter WHAT chemical you use...and you SHOULD use a bunch of rinse water no matter what to get the organics OFF the formations to make the return of growing stuff that much harder....

Also nice to hear that peroxide can be had cheap and easy at pool shop....had not thought of that possible source....

Another consideration for "sterilizing" thats probably safe, cheap. and probably not as foreign to caves or living organisms is dilute alchohol.....though it wont have the fizz factor that I think might work to peroxides advantage under some circumstances....

Blll

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I might be off base but I was wondering about those steam cleaners that the daytime TV over here continually tries to sell us? If it's a show cave and it has lights presumably it has power as well so it should be possible ? and shouldn't cause any ill effects that I can see it's just water.

[SpelunkerBoB]

I might be off base but I was wondering about those steam cleaners that the daytime TV over here continually tries to sell us? If it's a show cave and it has lights presumably it has power as well so it should be possible ? and shouldn't cause any ill effects that I can see it's just water.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have used a small hand-held steamer to clean off moss (in small areas). We have plans to experiment with a larger industrial sized steamer, but just haven't gotten to it yet.The small steamer works pretty well, but doesn't permanently eradicate the moss, so it's an on-going issue.