Will Wal Mart destroy an NSS Owned Cave???

[Buford Pruitt]

Ken et al.,

Jim Taylor, Steve O and I are quite aware of the Alachua Wal-Mart situation and are looking into it. We are currently in a data-gathering mode, trying to ascertain just exactly what, if any, potential adverse impacts could occur to Mill Creek Cave from the proposed development. I spent 30 years as an environmental consultant in Florida, and thus am VERY familiar with the permit and review processes that WM will have to go through to construct this store. Along with Levy County residents, including NSS members, I fought the application for the Manatee Limestone Pit, which had the potential to destroy the water quality and recreational values of Manatee Springs; that set of permits was rejected.

The reason I have not responded to this thread before now is that I have a lot of stuff to do these days, and thus am not spending much time reading the NSS discussion board. I have a choice: I can work on the Mill Creek WM situation (and the Florida Cave Survey, and the FSS, and yet another NSS preserve controversy that you may not have heard of), or I can wander around the NSS discussion board. I am sure you will all understand that Steve, Jim and I need to focus right now on assessing the situation.

The portion of the cave that is under the WM site, the Syphon Tunnel, is under at least 158 ft of water according to the 1976 Exley map. Assuming the water table is at the rock-clastics interface and that the interface is 30 ft deep, then there is 128 ft of rock above the ceiling of the Syphon Tunnel. We can get updated maps of the cave, updated info on the thickness of the clastics overlying the rock, and updated water table elevation data, but regardless, we are likely to find that there is a LOT of limestone between the cave and the Wal-Mart. I’m not a geotechnical engineer or geologist, but I am fairly sure that much rock will support the store above the cave.

Of course, there could be clastics-plugged sinkholes that might communicate between the cave and the WM under the right (wrong) situations, and we will need to find that out. Are there any geotechs or geologists out there who might be able to help us on this issue?

I have been told that WM intends to sell gasoline from that store, so we also need to learn what protection DEP will require WM to install in order to protect ground waters from petroleum product spills or leakages. I didn’t “doâ€

[kelly]

[quote="Buford Pruitt"]Ken et al.,

Jim Taylor, Steve O and I are quite aware of the Alachua Wal-Mart situation and are looking into it. We are currently in a data-gathering mode, trying to ascertain just exactly what, if any, potential adverse impacts could occur to Mill Creek Cave from the proposed development. I spent 30 years as an environmental consultant in Florida, and thus am VERY familiar with the permit and review processes that WM will have to go through to construct this store. Along with Levy County residents, including NSS members, I fought the application for the Manatee Limestone Pit, which had the potential to destroy the water quality and recreational values of Manatee Springs; that set of permits was rejected.

The reason I have not responded to this thread before now is that I have a lot of stuff to do these days, and thus am not spending much time reading the NSS discussion board. I have a choice: I can work on the Mill Creek WM situation (and the Florida Cave Survey, and the FSS, and yet another NSS preserve controversy that you may not have heard of), or I can wander around the NSS discussion board. I am sure you will all understand that Steve, Jim and I need to focus right now on assessing the situation.

The portion of the cave that is under the WM site, the Syphon Tunnel, is under at least 158 ft of water according to the 1976 Exley map. Assuming the water table is at the rock-clastics interface and that the interface is 30 ft deep, then there is 128 ft of rock above the ceiling of the Syphon Tunnel. We can get updated maps of the cave, updated info on the thickness of the clastics overlying the rock, and updated water table elevation data, but regardless, we are likely to find that there is a LOT of limestone between the cave and the Wal-Mart. I’m not a geotechnical engineer or geologist, but I am fairly sure that much rock will support the store above the cave.

Of course, there could be clastics-plugged sinkholes that might communicate between the cave and the WM under the right (wrong) situations, and we will need to find that out. Are there any geotechs or geologists out there who might be able to help us on this issue?

I have been told that WM intends to sell gasoline from that store, so we also need to learn what protection DEP will require WM to install in order to protect ground waters from petroleum product spills or leakages. I didn’t “doâ€

[ken hill]

and thus am VERY familiar with the permit and review processes that WM will have to go through to construct this store

Buford,
I thank you for the reply and efforts to date. The recent posts came about as a result of much alarm from many members and are essential to address the concerns of these members.

The reason for the urgency is that the statement you made above and the information given to others who have followed this construction process all have led us to believe the final decisions and approvals for construction of this site have not been made. Perhaps that is no longer true.

In the past week, major earth-moving equipment has been in place at the site and major construction has begun. From what I know about construction, none of this can or should happen until permits have been issued. A post from another site reports:

I described the mound as some 75' to 100' high, so it is not square but rather a pile or mound as stated-! The area dug or bulldozed is roughly large enough to build a store & to put in a large parking lot-!

If this is indeed the situation this is not simple error on Wal-Marts part and the construction appears to be using a Terrasystems approach which will certainly destroy the cave:

Where Repeated high energy impacts using weights of 8
to 20 tons dropped from heights of up to 70 feet are used to first locate the domes. Once a dome is located, additional high-energy impacts are used to collapse the dome.

I repeat that I appreciate your good efforts but the prudent course of action would to have the legal resources ready to restrain Wal-Mart from further development or building on this site until a hearing to determine its immediate past actions as well as future environmental impact.

The course of action on how to properly handle this situation is now up to you and Steve Ormeroid as the members representatives within the NSS leadership. I wouldn't want to have this happening to me on my watch so I wish you well.

Regards
/Ken

[Ralph DiPanfilo]

Hi Ken. Kelly and all,
I called the Alachua County Building Dept. and permits for the Distribution Center have already been approved. We are definitely behind in any action so there is no time for delay. There has been much information published about the "battle" between residents and concerned groups in the local newspaper (High Springs Herald). Walmart has stated they would use "dynamic compaction" whereby 3 to 10 10 ton weights would be dropped from helicopters and any "collapse" would be filled with concrete. Their own review by geologists stated that in every square mile of the area there was hundreds of submerged caverns and caves. This was all reported tin the local newspaper over the course of the last year.

Obviously, the project brings huge money to a cash strapped county. It is also the county who decides what happens and not the state. Whatever the NSS can do I, as a life member of the NSS and the CDS, urge the NSS to do it.

Ralph

[ken hill]

Ralph,
Thanks for the confirmation of what I knew was bad news. I wish I could say it isn't so.

In recapping the facts of this matter.

- Through no fault of the Preserves Manager and others who have been following the permit process for a year. A permit was issued by those in the process before the CDS or the NSS could have any input to the local zoning officials.

- The CDS acting upon legal advice by someone who is not a Florida Attorney does not have an immediate plan of action since they cannot have email or other discussion on a course of action until their next formal BoD meeting in November.

- The NSS AVP is studying the matter while the dirt at the site according to eye witnesses reports is already been dozed and mounded to a height of 100'. This is in preparation for the dropping of 10 ton weights from helicopters onto the site aiming directly over the cave, using cave map data that is the intellectual property of the CDS.

My $.02. ----- The NSS and the CDS have a Conservation obligation to caves. It is my opinion that each organization needs to satisfy this obligation by having an attorney look into the feasibility of mounting a successful challenge to make certain the cave and its contents are afforded the full protection of Florida's cave and environmental laws. In Florida, Holland & Knight or Carey, O'Malley, Whitaker & Manson come to mind as water law experts. The next and only correct step for the NSS and the CDS to pursue is obtaining a restraining order to halt the construction until a hearing allowing our concerns can be held.

Lastly, the membership which has been in the dark must be kept informed in a timely manner.

Regards,
/Ken

[Lynn]

Is an Environmental Impact Statement (ESI) available?

[ken hill]

Pretzlgirl,
Thanks for the PM and the support

Buford,

Copy of a post offering help.


Ken, I just went over to the NSS forum and caught up. We have all fell into the same pit. As I understand it there are 2 projects. One is a distribution center which is a done deal. The 2nd is a store near the sink that I don't think is a done deal. The store is the one to be concerned about. The documents are for the distro center.

Please pass on to Mr. Pruitt my willingness to help. I'm a geologist registered and working in central FL. He may reach me at 727 919 1484 or glasbrenner@mindspring.com. I also know of another cave diver who is a P.G. and more local that might be approached to help.

Drew Glasbrenner

[Buford Pruitt]

The Suwannee River Water Management District has permitted construction of the Wal-Mart distribution center off SR235 to the SW of the city of Alachua.

The SRWMD has had no contact from Wal-Mart about the proposed supercenter in the SE quadrant of I-75 / US441. Wal-Mart is therefore a minimum of 6 months away from obtaining a SRWMD permit, but more probably 9 – 12 months away. Upon my request to be placed on an “interested partyâ€

[SPELEOMANIAC]

working in civil engineering and being a lifelong resident of northwest AR (home of Wal-Mart) i'll say

this will be a nasty batlle if it becomes neccessary to fight it

wal-mart legal probably has a budget 10 times or more than the entire NSS budget

I'll ask around to see if Wal-Mart may be using an engineering firm here in NWA

[ken hill]

Buford,
Thanks for taking a look at the site and making the notifications regarding the construction of the future Supercenter. That should help in any future effort to regulate the construction to ensure the cave stays safe.

What I understand is what concerned Cindy Butler was that the current construction of the Distribution center commenced without notification to anyone in the cave community who like you also asked to be included as interested parties.

Prior to her trip she (and others) expressed concern that the new construction was over the cave. Since you reported the SRWMD issued a permit the question remains why weren't the "interested parties" notified? Secondly if the permit issued from SRWMD was done without input from the interested parties could a cease a desist order be obtained.

Thanks
/Ken

[Lynn]

Pretzlgirl, Thanks for the PM and the support.

Your more than Welcome Ken!

[wendy]

I read in the High Springs Herald the other day that there will several commission meetings where concerned citizens can come and speak.

Also in today's Gainesville Sun, Wal-mart announced that they would be building a huge supercenter in NE Gainesville.

I wonder why they need so many supercenters so close to each other?

[Buford Pruitt]

Wendy, if you're reading the High Springs Herald on a regular basis, I'd appreciate your letting me know when you see these public hearings announced. TIA.

[kelly]

. I believe the site’s natural drainage is to the topographic low at the eastern side of the property. I suspect the supercenter’s stormwater treatment pond will be placed in that location
:

Where could a site plan be accessed to verify these things?

Have you considered a biological assessment of the system? The fauna indigenous to this system I understand are protected. If you have leaching of petrochemicals into the system this could be detrimental.
Thanks

[Ron Fulcher]

I thought that federal law established during the "cave wars" in Mammoth Cave region that the property rights to the above and below resources were and are controlled by the owner of the land above. The NPS limited the exploration of Mammoth by CRF in this manner. I have always taken this to mean that you need permission from not only the owner of the entrance but, also the owners of all the property where a cave extends even if they do not have direct access from their property. The book "The Longest Cave" explained it this way.

Of course I am not a lawyer but, from what I read owning the entrance does not mean that you own the entire cave. I think that is what Cheryl was saying in her post. I would take it to further mean that exploring these areas of the cave without permission or a memorandum of understanding would be trespassing under those federal statutes.

It seems there has probably been a lack of a quality study to determine the overall impact if any in the usual Wal-Mart expansion. The folks who have the most to lose however are the residents of that county or township and they are the ones you need to get the cooperation from not the NSS and CDS members from around the country.

The NSS has the responsibility to aid your fight with publications but, the outcry must come from a majority of the local population and not from a National group that could be misconstrued as outside interference. I hope that this 11th hour alert was proceeded by active attempts to educate the local population in a one on one basis. The decision is ultimately the responsibility of the voters there and not the NSS as to whether or not Wal-Mart gets to build there.

If the concesus of these voters was not obtained then unfortunately commiting thousands from the NSS would be more in vain then able to succeed. Was the map published or displayed to the residents showing this relationship between the cave and the building sight? Was there an active attempt to reach these voters with the information? Or as I fear did the secretive nature of cavers and their maps cost the future of this cave and water resource?

If all those steps were taken to inform the local population and they are still supporting the construction then all the NSS trying to stop their plans would do is upset the vary source of backing you would need to ultimately win this fight. If you did take those steps as described above then I congradulate your efforts!!!

I do not support Wal-Mart, they destroy the local economy and small businesses. The best way to curtail this company is to support the unionization of all their locations. You have to stop them by hurting the bottomline and also help improve the future of the American worker as well..

Ron Fulcher
NSS 44706RL