BSA Caving

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BSA Caving

Postby amaddox » Oct 3, 2005 6:59 am

cave rat,

I haven't heard of the Caving Merit Badge. Can you clarify? I've helped Venturers with the Caving Elective towards Ranger. I haven't heard of a formal caving advancement for Boy Scouts.

Allen

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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:06 am Post subject:

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As the Caving Merit Badge Counselor/Director of my BSA Council, I have to keep a parents release form on file to release all medical information to me and the Council so that we have it in case the parent is not around.

Also the Boy Scouts of America requires all scouts parents to fill out either a Class II or III Medical form and keep it on file with the Scout Troop.
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Oct 3, 2005 7:54 am

Does anyone have a link to the rules and regs for taking scouts on caving trips? Thanks.
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Postby speloman » Oct 3, 2005 8:00 am

Me neither. But I wouldn't be suprised if there is one now The BSA is always adding new Badges. If you Man I got jipped, I would have gotten that one first :) When I was a scout. I do know about the Ventures Too I was a venture Scout. Keep us Posted I would be interested in finding out about a Caving Merrit Badge
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BSA Caving Policy

Postby amaddox » Oct 3, 2005 8:04 am

Dan Sullivan wrote:Does anyone have a link to the rules and regs for taking scouts on caving trips? Thanks.


Dan,
First place to look is the Guide to safe Scouting http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/
and look under caving. There is a referance to a caving document (BSA bin # -19-120) which I have a link for;
http://us.share.geocities.com/pa_youth_ ... tement.pdf
If you have any specific question, please feel free to ask. There are a lot of myths and legends. Don't beleive everything you hear unless there is documentation.

Allen
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Oct 3, 2005 8:53 am

Thanks for quick response Allen. I couldn't get your second link to work, but I did find this off the first link. I'm postijng it here for those with dial up.


Caving
General Policy

Caving can be a hazardous activity when the proper equipment, skills, and judgment are not used. Trips that are led by adults inexperienced in caving and trips containing large numbers of persons compound the hazards already inherent in the activity and create a potentially dangerous situation.

All caving, other than simple novice activities, should be limited to adults and young people 14 and older—members of Venturing crews and older Scouts in troops, and teams. "Simple novice activities" means commercially operated cave excursions and easy caves.

Units (teams, troops, crews) that include cave visits in their program, whether for one trip or many, must adhere to the two-deep leadership policy of the Boy Scouts of America (two registered adult leaders, or one adult and a parent of a youth member, one of whom must be 21 or older). These leaders must be responsible, mature adults who are constantly present with the group. One cave trip leader must be highly qualified through caving experience and must be thoroughly versed in all established safety practices, conservation measures, and courtesy to cave owners.

In conformity with the BSA policy on the use of wilderness areas, all caving groups should be limited to 8 to 10 persons and two-deep leadership as required by the Boy Scouts of America for all trips or outings. Caving activities for larger groups should not be conducted. Each group should be organized to function independently, i.e., plan its own trips on different dates, provide its own transportation and food, and function as a separate and distinct group. The only exception to these rules may be trips to certain commercial caves where special provisions are made to furnish proper supervision by professional guides.

Note: Caving trips have been incorporated in the BSA "Policy on Use of Wilderness Areas by Personnel of the BSA," with a cross reference to these guidelines. Copies of the wilderness area policy statement are available from High Adventure Programs, Boy Scouts of America, 1325 West Walnut Hill Lane, Irving, Texas 75015-2079.

Any Venturing crew wishing to learn about cave rescue work or pursue that activity as a specialty must do so under the sponsorship and supervision of an adult cave rescue group affiliated with the National Speleological Society.

All Scout groups are required to have an approved tour permit for trips of all kinds. Cave activities are included under that plan. National tour permits are required for a trip of 500 miles or more; local permits are issued to cover shorter trips.

The leaders and the individual members of the group must understand these basic practices and policies of caving, which are approved by the Boy Scouts of America and the National Speleological Society. In addition to understanding these tenets, every participant in a caving trip must agree, without reservation, to follow all of the specifc guidelines contained in BSA's Caving publication, No. 19-102A.

Cave Safety

Any cave trip must include a fully qualified leader or adult assistants qualified to handle all problems that might arise. These leaders should have had experience as active participants in a competent caving group. They must realistically evaluate their own knowledge and experience and must never attempt to lead their group into a situation that is beyond their capability or the capability of any member of the group. The overall capability and pace of a caving group is always that of the least able member of that group, and no member of the group should ever be encouraged or permitted to attempt a potentially dangerous act that is beyond their ability solely because the remainder of the group has the necessary ability.

The leaders must thoroughly comprehend that overwhelming difficulties may easily result from the problems of fatigue, improper or faulty equipment, emotional problems, physical limitations, or excessive eagerness or exuberance in members of the group. Additionally, they must realize that all of these individual problems are often interrelated and that the occurrence of any one of them can easily create a situation that will lead to or accentuate any or all of the others.

The leaders must constantly remember that any obstacle overcome on the way into the cave will also have to be overcome on the way out, when the group is tired, when the initial enthusiasm of some of the group may have decreased, and when their alertness and physical abilities, as well of those of their group, is at the lowest.

The leaders must have adequate first aid training and ability, and a comprehensive knowledge of the practices to follow in the event of an accident.

The leaders must keep their group together at all times.

All basic equipment such as clothing, shoes, lights, and spare parts for the lights, hard hats, and food should be appropriate for the cave being explored.

It is the responsibility of the leader to ensure that all equipment is adequate and in good condition.

The equipment and spares must never be makeshift or of questionable dependability. The highest standards developed by experienced cavers are to be met in all categories of equipment.

The use and repair of each item must be understood and demonstrated by all of the party before entering the cave.

Under no conditions should any member of the group be permitted to enter the cave if they do not have all of the required equipment in their possession. The sharing of any equipment, such as lights, between individuals must be prohibited.

Except for groups composed entirely of experienced cavers, the cave to be explored must not require the use of ropes, ladders, or other climbing devices. The safe use of these aids requires extensive initial training and practice under controlled conditions above ground, never in a cave.

Natural and fabricated hazards such as mud slopes, loose rocks, pits, deep water, complex routes, old ropes, wooden ladders, and the possibility of flooding are all dangers to some degree and must be approached with care and judgment. If it appears that an accident may still occur in spite of preventive measures, that area must be avoided entirely.

The strength, endurance, and specific abilities of every member of the group must be evaluated in advance and nothing attempted that exceeds anyone's limitations. Climbing, crawling, and route finding are not necessarily inborn skills, and should be taught and tested before a cave trip is undertaken.

Not only the leaders, but every person on a cave trip should be aware of the necessity to constantly observe the whereabouts and potential problems of other members of the group and be ready to provide any assistance necessary.

Running, jumping, horseplay, and solo exploration must be prohibited—such foolhardy actions jeopardize not only the individual but also the entire group.

Caves are often cold and damp, and hypothermia is a danger, especially on long trips or trips requiring wading or crawling in water. Try to dress for conditions to be met, stay as dry as possible. Leave the cave immediately if any member of the group shows signs of hypothermia such as uncontrollable shivering, slurred speech, or loss of coordination.

Specific information about the caving trip must be left with a responsible person back home at time of departure. This should include location and length of time of trip, expected time of return, list of participants, and whom to contact for each trip member in case of emergency.

A record of every cave trip will provide valuable assistance to new leaders and cavers alike. Full records of all caving accidents will provide the basis for a guide to the development of a safe caving program.

A complete report of any accident, regardless of severity, should be sent to the Safety Committee of the National Speleological Society, Cave Avenue, Huntsville, AL 35810.

Serious accidents should also be reported to the director of Health and Safety Service of the Boy Scouts of America.

Resource: Caving, No. 19-102A
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Postby amaddox » Oct 3, 2005 11:38 am

http://www.geocities.com/pa_youth_group ... tement.pdf

Try this one. If it doesn't work, let me know and I'll try something else.

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Postby Dan Sullivan » Oct 4, 2005 9:38 pm

Allen,
I finally got your link to work, but I had to be signed into my Yahoo account and do some cutting and pasting to find it. Thanks, I'll study up. I'm meeting a scout master tomarrow night. Your help has been much appreciated.

Anyone else having problems accessing Allen's link? Just curious.
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Postby mgmills » Oct 4, 2005 9:55 pm

Dan Sullivan wrote:Anyone else having problems accessing Allen's link? Just curious.


I tried both links and neither of the links worked for me - I tried Dan's idea of logging into my yahoo account and pasting it but even that didn't work for me. :?
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BSA Caving

Postby amaddox » Oct 5, 2005 6:58 am

I guess there's a limit when you use geocities. Would you like for me to send it directly to your e-mail? Anyone else want it?

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Postby Wayne Harrison » Oct 5, 2005 7:07 am

Here is a link posted on the BSA Web site:

http://www.scoutresources.org/bs/caving ... roups.html
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Re: BSA Caving

Postby Wayne Harrison » Oct 5, 2005 7:11 am

amaddox wrote:I haven't heard of the Caving Merit Badge. Can you clarify? I've helped Venturers with the Caving Elective towards Ranger. I haven't heard of a formal caving advancement for Boy Scouts.


The caving merit badge is specific to some Boy Scout Councils -- it's not a nationwide merit badge.

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(I'm also on the Youth Groups Liaison Committee)
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BSA Caving

Postby amaddox » Oct 5, 2005 7:30 am

The caving merit badge is specific to some Boy Scout Councils -- it's not a nationwide merit badge.



(I'm also on the Youth Groups Liaison Committee)
======================================

Hey Wayne,

Can you get me any specifics like requirements and the BSA Council name? I'd like to see about getting something like this at Chester County Council.

Thanks,

Allen
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Oct 5, 2005 9:03 am

Martha,
Try cutting and pasting the link to the geocities area in Yahoo after you sign into Yahoo. I had to trim the link a little to get it to take.

Thanks for the links everyone. I've been hesitant in the past to lead just any Boy Scout troup. With some of this info in hand, I'll know where to draw the line. He mentioned 15-20 kids from age 11-15. He also wanted to do a sleep over inside a cave and make it a two day adventure. I'm thinking about dividing the group into two and do two trips, one each day, and I'm staying in a hotel room. (They want to do this in November, in the mountains. :shock: )
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Postby Wayne Harrison » Oct 5, 2005 9:11 am

amaddox -- Re: the Caving Merit Badge, I would suggest posting on the MeritBadge.net site. My recollection is it is offered in some Councils that are in the TAG area.

http://meritbadge.net/phpbb/index.php


Dan, here's the info I have on official BSA requirements (including group size) for cave exploration:

Caving
General Policy

Caving can be a hazardous activity when the proper equipment, skills, and judgment are not used. Trips that are led by adults inexperienced in caving and trips containing large numbers of persons compound the hazards already inherent in the activity and create a potentially dangerous situation.

All caving, other than simple novice activities, should be limited to adults and young people 14 and older—members of Venturing crews and older Scouts in troops, and teams. "Simple novice activities" means commercially operated cave excursions and easy caves.
Units (teams, troops, crews) that include cave visits in their program, whether for one trip or many, must adhere to the two-deep leadership policy of the Boy Scouts of America (two registered adult leaders, or one adult and a parent of a youth member, one of whom must be 21 or older). These leaders must be responsible, mature adults who are constantly present with the group. One cave trip leader must be highly qualified through caving experience and must be thoroughly versed in all established safety practices, conservation measures, and courtesy to cave owners.

In conformity with the BSA policy on the use of wilderness areas, all caving groups should be limited to 8 to 10 persons and two-deep leadership as required by the Boy Scouts of America for all trips or outings. Caving activities for larger groups should not be conducted. Each group should be organized to function independently, i.e., plan its own trips on different dates, provide its own transportation and food, and function as a separate and distinct group. The only exception to these rules may be trips to certain commercial caves where special provisions are made to furnish proper supervision by professional guides.
Note: Caving trips have been incorporated in the BSA "Policy on Use of Wilderness Areas by Personnel of the BSA," with a cross reference to these guidelines. Copies of the wilderness area policy statement are available from High Adventure Programs, Boy Scouts of America, 1325 West Walnut Hill Lane, Irving, Texas 75015-2079.

Any Venturing crew wishing to learn about cave rescue work or pursue that activity as a specialty must do so under the sponsorship and supervision of an adult cave rescue group affiliated with the National Speleological Society.

All Scout groups are required to have an approved tour permit for trips of all kinds. Cave activities are included under that plan. National tour permits are required for a trip of 500 miles or more; local permits are issued to cover shorter trips.

The leaders and the individual members of the group must understand these basic practices and policies of caving, which are approved by the Boy Scouts of America and the National Speleological Society. In addition to understanding these tenets, every participant in a caving trip must agree, without reservation, to follow all of the specific guidelines contained in BSA's Caving publication, No. 19-102A.
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Postby tropicalbats » Oct 6, 2005 12:02 am

Dan Sullivan wrote:Thanks for the links everyone. I've been hesitant in the past to lead just any Boy Scout troup. With some of this info in hand, I'll know where to draw the line. He mentioned 15-20 kids from age 11-15. He also wanted to do a sleep over inside a cave and make it a two day adventure. I'm thinking about dividing the group into two and do two trips, one each day, and I'm staying in a hotel room. (They want to do this in November, in the mountains. :shock: )


Dan,

Wow, red flags everywhere! First, the scout leader either did not do his homework (this happens), or he's a rogue leader and very much to be avoided. Fifteen to twenty kids!!! Plus all the adults and cavers you'd need to meet the BSA two-deep and experience guidelines you'd have friggin' army in the cave. But, since 10 is the max number of TOTAL people allowed on a BSA trip like this (yes, including adults), you won't have that problem when you tell him that about six scouts are all that can be taken in a cave on the same trip (and all other trips, as noted in the rules, must arrive via thier own separate transportation, etc., to avoid exactly the situation you are being put in, just running one trip after another. But even better is that you need to tell him that everyone under the age of 14 gets to sit back at camp, so you won't have nearly as many qualified kids in the first place. As for camping in the cave, that seems to make no sense at all. Burrito bags, kitchen drop cloth, individual drop cloths, etc. plus all the extra gear the poor kids would have to carry on a cave trip that should actually be fun. But overall, I'd suggest that caves are a poor choice for recreational camping. And one last thing, if they camp, and you the experienced caver leading the trip head off to a hotel, I don't even want to guess who all will be sued if one of the kids wanders off deeper into the cave at night.

I've led some pretty enjoyable trips with the scouts, but this one doesn't sound like anything I'd care to work on.

Cheers,

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