Butterfly or Alpine Butterfly?

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Re: Butterfly or Alpine Butterfly?

Postby mdhafner » Nov 11, 2015 2:52 pm

The "false" butterfly already has a name. It is the Englishman's Loop or Englishman's Knot and is #1038 in Ashley's Book of Knots. It was previously used as a loop knot for fishing, probably using gut. It was tied like a midline loop, but near the end of the line and then used as and end of line loop, loading just one leg. Even as a fishing knot, Ashley didn't have very high regard for it and mentioned other knots that he recommended as more suitable. It has very poor symmetry. The overhand knots nest poorly since they are opposite parity, which is a particularly bad feature in climbing - you would never tie your prusik loops with mirror image double overhand knots. It seems to be constantly trying to capsize under load due to these structural problems. I would not use this knot for anything.
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Re: Butterfly or Alpine Butterfly?

Postby knudeNoggin » Oct 14, 2016 11:27 am

mdhafner wrote:The "false" butterfly already has a name. It is the Englishman's Loop or Englishman's Knot and is #1038 in Ashley's Book of Knots.

Not so fast : you've matched one of Ashley's tying images but not considered the finished (dressed & set) knot, which is distinctly different. Note, e.g., that the ends exit #1038 adjacent to each other, which is not so for the "false butterfly".

ps : While I didn't see mention in this thread, Bob Thrun did find a copy of a book (cited by Cyrus L. Day --maybe our best knots author) in which "lineman's loop" was presented which precedes the date of Wright & Magowan's presentation in the Alpine journal. --for what that's worth. (So far, I'm unaware of any closer-to-users source of information about the lineman's loop --say, from some lineman's guide book or instructions, or maybe even some old photos or other images?)
Day writes (in The Art of Knotting & Splicing (4th ed. <c>1986)) :
Burger (1914-15), who first published this excellent knot, writes as follows" "Linemen and especially telephone men often use a knot [that] they term 'the lineman's rider'. It is absolutely secure and will hold from any point upon which it may be drawn." Drew (1931) likens it to the bowline "in that it will not jam." "It is often used," he says, "when a crew of men are to pull on a rope and it is convenient for each man to have a loop rather than pull on the rope." Wright and Magowan (1928) call it the butterfly noose and recommend it as a middle loop for mountain climbers, a purpose to which it is pefectly adapted.

*kN* (trying to get my noggin back into knudes)
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