Mythbuster busting

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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby NZcaver » Nov 20, 2014 4:39 am

hank moon wrote:Several of these "Myths" are poorly worded/defined in that they don't make a clear claim or statement one way or the other.

I agree with Hank. Nice intent to stimulate discussion - and some very valid points - but hardly definitive in all cases.

It has long been a source of amusement for me that one of the biggest myths on their website is not actually on the mythbusters page - the great "left handed (only) ascender with a Frog System" myth.

Scott McCrea wrote:Belay loops don't just break.

I beg to differ. I saw one break with my own eyes years ago. The stitching ripped under normal body weight loading, with the subject thankfully already in close proximity to the ground. Older harness, no sharp edges, no known chemicals in contact with the harness. All identical harnesses in that particular gear cache were immediately retired/destroyed. While I don't disagree about the triaxial loading considerations of bypassing a belay loop with a carabiner, I remain wary of belay loops in general.
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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby Tlaloc » Nov 20, 2014 2:01 pm

NZcaver wrote:I beg to differ. I saw one break with my own eyes years ago. The stitching ripped under normal body weight loading...


See:

http://www.climbing.com/climber/loss-of-a-legend/

Todd's harness was extremely worn and he had ordered a new one so theoretically this could have prevented.
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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby Scott McCrea » Nov 20, 2014 2:10 pm

NZcaver wrote:
Scott McCrea wrote:Belay loops don't just break.

I beg to differ. I saw one break with my own eyes years ago. The stitching ripped under normal body weight loading, with the subject thankfully already in close proximity to the ground. Older harness, no sharp edges, no known chemicals in contact with the harness. All identical harnesses in that particular gear cache were immediately retired/destroyed. While I don't disagree about the triaxial loading considerations of bypassing a belay loop with a carabiner, I remain wary of belay loops in general.

I would like to hear more about this. What brand, construction, age, etc...

Some informative testing on belay loops. http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/qc- ... loops.html
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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby hank moon » Nov 20, 2014 6:22 pm

NZcaver wrote:
hank moon wrote:It has long been a source of amusement for me that one of the biggest myths on their website is not actually on the mythbusters page - the great "left handed (only) ascender with a Frog System" myth.


"only" added for fun? :)

and that myth goes more like,

"Left-handed ascender for the Frog System when taking large steps with a too-short footloop 'cuz your footloop broke in-cave 'cuz it was made of braided gum wrappers or shrunk because wet squirrel leather or maybe you just made it too short in the first place but any way you look at it we're talking about gear-based human error mitigation taken to a silly place."

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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby NZcaver » Nov 21, 2014 4:16 am

Scott McCrea wrote:I would like to hear more about this. What brand, construction, age, etc...

Good question. I can tell you the year was 1990, and it happened in New Zealand. I vaguely recall being told the harness was 5 years old, but can't remember any other specifics. I did find a photo which I think is the same type of harness (but not the actual one that failed), with the figure-8 descender attachment carabiner shown bypassing the blue belay loop and clipped directly into the waist loop and leg loops.

Image

I am certainly not advocating for a widespread mistrust of belay loops on modern harnesses, but it tends to stick in the mind when one personally witnesses a piece of gear unexpectedly fail.

hank moon wrote:...and that myth goes more like,

"Left-handed ascender for the Frog System when taking large steps with a too-short footloop 'cuz your footloop broke in-cave 'cuz it was made of braided gum wrappers or shrunk because wet squirrel leather or maybe you just made it too short in the first place but any way you look at it we're talking about gear-based human error mitigation taken to a silly place."

:exactly:
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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby GroundquestMSA » Nov 21, 2014 9:19 pm

Scott McCrea wrote:More than two wraps could cause some twisting/torquing forces. Some anchors might not like that.


Removed
Last edited by GroundquestMSA on Mar 13, 2015 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby OpRescue » Nov 21, 2014 9:52 pm

You need to copyright that graphic! Classic.
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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby Chads93GT » Nov 21, 2014 11:20 pm

That's hands down the best diagram ever.
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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby hank moon » Nov 22, 2014 12:20 am

GroundquestMSA wrote:
hank moon wrote:Here's a myth for ya: "the tensionless hitch is the best way to rig to a tree,"


For me it is, because I'm an inelegant ignoramus who feels no sympathy for skinned trees, and the tensionless hitch is as easy as it gets. I would love to learn a better way if it's really better.


A skinned tree is a dead tree, eventually. Then come bolts. And bolt wars.

Love your anchor trees!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girdling

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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby GroundquestMSA » Nov 22, 2014 1:19 am

hank moon wrote:
GroundquestMSA wrote:
hank moon wrote:Here's a myth for ya: "the tensionless hitch is the best way to rig to a tree,"


For me it is, because I'm an inelegant ignoramus who feels no sympathy for skinned trees, and the tensionless hitch is as easy as it gets. I would love to learn a better way if it's really better.


A skinned tree is a dead tree, eventually. Then come bolts. And bolt wars.

Love your anchor trees!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girdling



I do actually feel bad when I see ruined trees. I never worry about protecting trees when I cave or climb though, since I'm never at a popular spot. The trees I rig to are going to be used by myself and whoever is with me, until we are done surveying or exploring, and that's probably all the stress that tree will see for a few years or decades. So I should have said "gently skinned tree".
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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby NZcaver » Nov 22, 2014 1:09 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:Image

Pure gold.
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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby LukeM » Nov 22, 2014 11:10 pm

I totally lost it at "to inelegant climber". Ha!

You need to at least add your name somewhere on there.
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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby Squirrel Girl » Nov 23, 2014 6:25 am

I'm becoming alarmed at the helmetless squirrels AND squirrel leather! :yikes:
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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby Patrick Wilson » Nov 23, 2014 5:40 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:
Perhaps you mean cases like this?
Image


I mainly sit back and watch from the shadows but that diagram will bring me out from the dark.

Bravo. I say bravo sir.
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Re: Mythbuster busting

Postby hank moon » Nov 23, 2014 6:01 pm

NZcaver wrote:
GroundquestMSA wrote:Image

Pure gold.


Solid! Should appear in the next nylon highway. best caving cartoon i've seen in a long time - thanks for the laughter, GQ

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