Why are you mapping caves?

[Chads93GT]

I'm guessing its like Ohio ;)

[agosnell]

Same thing goes for locations of caves, caving pictures and some places even the name of the cave is not shared.
What I have noticed about cave surveyors and mappers. If I help with their project they are more open to allowing me a copy.

It's not the same in other hobby's.
Maps and locations always seem available when I am hiking, riding, rock climbing, water falling, rafting, country hopping or biking.

[Chads93GT]

Most of those other hobbies include the availability of a phone call if you have an accident too. Caves aren't hiking trails. Caves are very dangerous compared to other recreational options. Generally speaking people don't destroy hiking trails. Etc with sledge hammers and spray paint.

Those of us who map caves. Especially pristine and beautiful caves, feel obligated to protect the location from speleoboppers. If you really want to know where caves are, you could always go looking for them like some of us ;). Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

[NWSurveyor]

so in your neck of the woods, what happens when your rescue teams run out of energy because they have been at it non stop for 20-30 hours? Refuse help?

Other rescue teams are called in. There are a few MRA teams in OR that would join in if asked and 6 MRA teams as well a handful of SAR teams for WA that would respond if needed. The IC just makes the request through DEM. Individuals are utilized where they're talented.

Also,, you always have a team leader in rescue no? What is wrong with that team leader giving directions to people who are there to help. Not every person has to have training to carry a skid, sometimes you simply need bodies to negotiate things. Cavers learn at a very very fast curve during a rescue. Tell them what to do, they do it.

Thanks for pointing this out. It happens often and is not an issue. I should have pointed out that I was referring to the technical aspects of rope rescue, i.e. anchor building, etc.

No offense gents, but this is considerably off topic now. I'd be happy to continue talking rescue under the Rescue forum, but let's please let this topic get back to covert mapping and classified cave operations.

[NWSurveyor]

Most of those other hobbies include the availability of a phone call if you have an accident too. Caves aren't hiking trails. Caves are very dangerous compared to other recreational options. Generally speaking people don't destroy hiking trails. Etc with sledge hammers and spray paint.

Those of us who map caves. Especially pristine and beautiful caves, feel obligated to protect the location from speleoboppers. If you really want to know where caves are, you could always go looking for them like some of us ;). Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

Caves have the potential to be extremely dangerous - just like mountains but you can get maps for those, even detailed route descriptions and topos. Regarding cave maps specifically, because it's potentially dangerous isn't a reason to keep the maps private, it's a reason to share.

Regarding cave locations, by all means protect them.

[Chads93GT]

Personally I don't care who ends up with maps I make as long as the land owners don't care. I only map private caves though. Public cave. I see no reason to hoard maps. Public land means public in my eyes.

As far as rescue, I was simply talking about the general personnel how they can contribute to haul anybody out, not technical rigging. My bad

[John Lovaas]

After one of our team cave rescue training exercises, we were hiking our gear out through the forest and ran into a small group of cavers hiking in. I stopped to chat when they asked what we were doing and discovered they were members of the local Grotto. I didn't know more information even existed, but I expressed interest in working with them in cave rescue training and asked if they'd be willing to share information they might have that we didn't on particularly dangerous cave systems. I was told no and quickly given the cold shoulder. We walked on in dismay. They wanted no association with us.

Um, if you had been this open and honest in your initial post, I rather doubt this thread would have gone the way it did.

I wouldn't hand over much in the way of data to a self-identified 'cave rescue team' that I happened upon in the woods one day- a 'team' with at least one member that is chock full of certainty.

[NWSurveyor]

Really John? Unless you can provide something positive with some level of respect, you'll have to forgive me if I no longer acknowledge your comments.

[Extremeophile]

Show me your certification to read cave maps and I'll send you all the maps you desire, or feel entitled to, otherwise I'll have to assume you're not qualified to see them.

[Extremeophile]

Certified, in this context, means that you ARE qualified.

Maybe in the context of your local state law, but not in reality.

You just got done saying that the NCRC class taught you that you were not certified (qualified?) in cave rescue. In fact you did get a certificate, but you are only qualified in self rescue. Why do you think they made a point to tell you that you weren’t certified in cave rescue?

You're missing the point. You stated earlier that you were certified in cave rescue by NCRC. I was politely trying to point out that you are not because NCRC provides cave rescue training, but not certification.

It’s certainly the IC’s prerogative to ask anyone they want for help. As an example, let’s say you’re on scene and you assert your qualifications to the IC and they agree to let you help. During the operation you get injured or killed. Guess who is liable? The County Sheriff’s Department is. Do you think they’re going to think twice about you assisting based on what you 'say' your experience is? Back to the Mission Number - If you are on a certified rescue team, then you are covered under the State’s Labor & Industries Insurance. OR and WA recognize teams trained under the guidelines and safety factors set forth in the Mountain Rescue Association (MRA) as qualified high angle technical rope rescue teams. These are paramedics and firefighters (as you so eloquently put it), but they are also volunteers on the team with local cavers, mountaineers, rock climbers, back country skiers, etc. Since you apparently don’t know much about actual rescue teams, I can tell you most teams have 2 to 3 training operations every month and ours had an annual high angle rope rescue course that is 40 hours total. We trained in confined spaces, caves, urban, and wilderness environments and most were at least Wilderness First Responders or EMT's. In order to have and maintain the MRA certificate, the team gets tested by the MRA on field operations ever few years. It’s no surprise that States recognize this certification. The local teams membership roster is kept updated at the DEM.

All very impressive. What little I know about rescue teams is that most members are selfless and don't have a condescending attitude.

[agosnell]

Most of those other hobbies include the availability of a phone call if you have an accident too. Caves aren't hiking trails. Caves are very dangerous compared to other recreational options. Generally speaking people don't destroy hiking trails. Etc with sledge hammers and spray paint.

Those of us who map caves. Especially pristine and beautiful caves, feel obligated to protect the location from speleoboppers. If you really want to know where caves are, you could always go looking for them like some of us ;). Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

The availability of phone call? Do you mean cell phones?



If the land owner of the land that the cave goes under does not actually own the cave, why do we give him maps of the entire cave? I understand that he only owns the entrances that are on his land.

[Chads93GT]

Well, cell phones make phone calls do they not? :)

Anyway, why would I give a map of the entire cave to someone who only owns an entrance? Because im too lazy to cut the map up and give him only whats approximately his, as it was that land owners good will that allowed me to map the entire cave. I see it as only right that they have a map as they could have told me to pound sand ;)

[agosnell]

Just wondering about the cell phone, because that reasoning would only be valid for the last 23 years or so since that is when cell phones became attainable by the masses.

I personally feel that who ever made the map should do with it what ever they choose to do with it.

[LukeM]

NWSurveyor, I wanted to speak to what you said about the grotto giving you the cold shoulder. I don't mean to offend with this, but at least where I'm from it's very difficult to be a serious caver and not be known within the local caving community. This, like you were saying, gets you access to the maps and locations that we so covet. I don't agree that most maps should be kept secret as some do, and luckily the map secrecy thing doesn't come up too often where I live.

However, like I said, it's hard not to have relations with a local grotto if you're caving a lot and speaking for myself I definitely would prefer to be rescued by a serious caver who's well known in the local caving community, qualifications or not. I tend to trust the opinions and judgement of the cavers I see on a regular basis much more than someone who can only point to certifications.

[NWSurveyor]

All very impressive. What little I know about rescue teams is that most members are selfless and don't have a condescending attitude.

Unbelievable, I guess I'll add selfish and condescending to lying and arrogance.