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Crockett wrote:if you pass one of these potentially illegal maps through your PLS hands as an agent of the maker, and you are compensated in some way (like reimbursement of expenses or provision of equipment for rescue using said map) then does that make you a criminal element for trafficing in illegal cave maps for pay and does it threaten your PLS status?
to·pog·ra·phy
noun \tə-ˈpä-grə-fē\
the art or practice of graphic delineation in detail usually on maps or charts of natural and man-made features of a place or region especially in a way to show their relative positions and elevations
NWSurveyor wrote:The Grottos here don't have qualified rescue personnel that can legally take part in rescues managed by the State emergency management system. Only qualified people can participate, i.e. rescue teams that are accredited through the MRA. Grotto members would have to become members of the rescue team to participate in a rescue - in this State.
NWSurveyor wrote:They did give us topo maps with coordinates for caves in our response area. All of the old USGS maps they had were also available for public viewing at my State Lands Office in the capitol city.
John Lovaas wrote:With a very few distinct exceptions, cave cartographers do not produce topographic maps. They produce maps- many of which consist of plan views with a few cross sections and elevations.
to•pog•ra•phy
noun \tə-ˈpä-grə-fē\
the art or practice of graphic delineation in detail usually on maps or charts of natural and man-made features of a place or region especially in a way to show their relative positions and elevations
John Lovaas wrote:Maps, that with current technology, have no better than a +/- 2 degree margin of error on any individual leg- and that's when they do backsights- some folks have better days, some worse. And some folks don't do backsights.
I mention this because it is the quality of your work that is going to protect your ass(as a PLS) in court. Your PLS will not protect you from lawsuits- just as incorporation will not protect you from going bankrupt from legal expenses before your court case gets past discovery.
John Lovaas wrote:Do you want to sue someone over the quality of a cave map? You'll be laughed out of the room during discovery. No cave cartographer represents their product as anything comparable to a map produced using a total station, with the data collected by PLSs.
John Lovaas wrote:If I was paranoid, I'd say some rescue group out West has too much Homeland Security money to burn, and is curious if they can scare maps out of uncooperative cave cartographers.
But I'm not paranoid. But, NW- you are not just 'an NSS member who wanted a copy of a cave map'.
Extremeophile wrote:NWSurveyor wrote:The Grottos here don't have qualified rescue personnel that can legally take part in rescues managed by the State emergency management system. Only qualified people can participate, i.e. rescue teams that are accredited through the MRA. Grotto members would have to become members of the rescue team to participate in a rescue - in this State.Extremeophile wrote:This seems like a far greater impediment to a successful cave rescue than not sharing maps. I can't imagine how anyone decided to make a policy that cave rescues can't include the only people who are expert in carrying them out. Is it wise to share cave maps with people that know nothing about caves? It might just make them think they're qualified to rescue cavers.
Extremeophile wrote:Also, it's nick-picking, but at my last NCRC class they really went out of their way to emphasize that none of us were being "certified" in cave rescue.
Extremeophile wrote:NWSurveyor wrote:They did give us topo maps with coordinates for caves in our response area. All of the old USGS maps they had were also available for public viewing at my State Lands Office in the capitol city.Extremeophile wrote:This might help explain some of the reluctance by cartographers in your region to openly share cave maps. Most caving groups do not want topo maps with cave locations and cave maps distributed to the public for conservation reasons.
NWSurveyor wrote:Maybe you missed where I said that the Grottos here don’t have qualified rescuers? You can’t just show up to a State managed rescue and participate because you say you’re qualified. I’m guessing TAG and other more major caving areas have qualified rescue teams with names on the State roster.
NWSurveyor wrote:They did give us topo maps with coordinates for caves in our response area. All of the old USGS maps they had were also available for public viewing at my State Lands Office in the capitol city.Extremeophile wrote:This might help explain some of the reluctance by cartographers in your region to openly share cave maps. Most caving groups do not want topo maps with cave locations and cave maps distributed to the public for conservation reasons.
Right, especially rescue teams, huh? The maps I referred to were done FOR the State Department of Conservation Division of Mines and Geology as a method of inventory, among other reasons. They are mostly dated in the ‘60s and are available through the public disclosure process. Many have since been resurveyed - but kept secret.
Extremeophile wrote:You mean to say that not one grotto caver in Oregon has taken NCRC training? I don't equate "qualified" with having your name on a state roster (not sure what that is). My point is simply that I would rather have cavers with no formal rescue training helping to rescue me than a bunch of firefighters with all the certifications in the world who had never been in a cave before. Certified and qualified are not the same thing.
Extremeophile wrote:NWSurveyor wrote:Maybe you missed where I said that the Grottos here don’t have qualified rescuers? You can’t just show up to a State managed rescue and participate because you say you’re qualified. I’m guessing TAG and other more major caving areas have qualified rescue teams with names on the State roster.
You mean to say that not one grotto caver in Oregon has taken NCRC training? I don't equate "qualified" with having your name on a state roster (not sure what this). My point is simply that I would rather have cavers with no formal rescue training helping to rescue me than a bunch of firefighters with all the certifications in the world who had never been in a cave before. Certified and qualified are not the same thing.
Keeping maps secret to protect caves and inexperienced cavers is an unproven concept. The argument has already been made that it may in fact do the opposite.Extremeophile wrote:Surveying of caves by cavers for use by cavers, and not for distribution to the public, is pretty standard practice just about everywhere in the US. This is done to protect caves and inexperienced cavers. I'm probably misunderstanding what you've described, but you made it sound like a government agency gave you (i.e. the public) a topo map with cave locations marked and maps of caves. You then made it sound incredulous that grotto cavers would not turn their latest maps over to this same government agency. Based on the way I read your post, it sounded like an entirely rational response by your local grotto.
NWSurveyor wrote:You obviously know much more than I do about cave rescue operations in those areas - so maybe you can consider that I probably know a little more about them in my area. In my area, I can confidently say that I would prefer to have the teams I know of, performing rescue operations over any self proclaimed cave rescuers.
Chads93GT wrote:so in your neck of the woods, what happens when your rescue teams run out of energy because they have been at it non stop for 20-30 hours? Refuse help?
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