Smokers in a cave

[GroundquestMSA]

My gawd, what a bunch of pathetic panty waist whiners on this thread. Considering that a bunch of you are hard core serious cave explorers, you sound like a bunch of screaming little girls.

Waaaaaa, he said something mean.

[NZcaver]

My gawd, what a bunch of pathetic panty waist whiners on this thread. Considering that a bunch of you are hard core serious cave explorers, you sound like a bunch of screaming little girls.

Waaaaaa, he said something mean.

Waaaaaa, does that mean I have to do the moderator thing now?

Meh, I detest second-hand smoke too. Inconsiderate a-holes. Now pass me more cheese to go with my whine, dammit!

[Cody JW]

I have caved for years with people who smoke, I do not smoke and prefer not to be around it and the people who go with me do not do it in sensitive formation areas of the cave. It never did bother me. I guess it is this younger generation. I will say that sometimes a cigarette is nice to have if you are looking to follow the air. I do agree with B . Trotter to a certain extent. I prefer not to live in a nanny state, we have lots of that already.

[Chads93GT]

Cave conservation. Some of us practice it. I guess smoking doesn't harm the biology of a cave. Right? Yeah. Whiners indeed.

[Cody JW]

Lets face it, If you want to get technical , just the presence of humans in a cave can impact cave biology. You could be stepping on microscopic life and not know it. You can disturb hibernating bats ect. the list goes on and on. If humans want to go in caves they are going to impact something , with or without cigarettes. Why some people want to fool themselves and get on a high horse about cigarettes when they are impacting the cave just by being in there is to me hypocritical. I do not smoke cigarettes and do not understand why people do but I also believe in the rights of people to engage in what is a legal activity, especially if they are being taxed out their rear ends to do so. As long as you do not smoke in pristine formation areas or in a small room full of hibernating bats I see no more negative impact than the impact of humans in a cave without cigarettes. I just do not understand all the hysteria over cigarettes today. Workplaces do not allow smoking on property, even in parked cars ? Some cities have built outdoor sports stadiums with a tax on cigarettes and do not allow smoking in the same outside stadium?? What a joke, this nanny state world we live in never ceases to amaze me. The government wants to tell you not to smoke but they are more than happy to take your tax money from it. Give me a f-ing break.

[tncaver]

Bureaucracy has invaded caving. It's too bad there isn't another "new world" to migrate to. This country was founded by people trying to escape bureaucratic "slavery". But it seems many of the pro bureaucrats have followed us to the "new world" and are gradually converting it to the same type of world the founders wanted to escape. I've been around lots of smokers in caves. Although I do not like being in a cave with smokers I have always been tolerant so long as smokers did not leave butts or smoke in a small area near bats, etc. Sometimes tolerance is required to get along.
However, I must admit that I am losing my will to be tolerant of fellow cavers who want to FORCE their ideals upon everyone else.

[Cody JW]

@TN. It is nice to see at least one other person gets it. I will give the younger generation a pass because they do not teach history anymore. They do not understand why this nation was formed to begin with.

[Chads93GT]

People are free to smoke in caves, sure. I am also free to think they are stupid for doing so.

Smoking is not allowed on my projects, or on the few rec trips I do. Smoke all you want above ground, I dont care, but dont choke me out underground. Thats a fast way to find yourself never invited on a survey trip again, much less a rec trip, in my circle. If you have a circle of caver friends who all smoke in a cave, and who dont care then by all means, keep doing what you are doing. (not you, im speaking generally) People are free to do what they wish, and others are free to voice their opinions. Realize there are also consequences to having a reputation as "the guy who smokes in caves". My crew doesnt bring people like that underground to help survey.

Personall, I enjoy the fresh air of the outdoors.

I simply find it funny that some think that voicing your opinion on someone smoking in a cave has anything to do with government regulation or nanny state BS. I simply dont like hanging out with smokers. I think its a disgusting habit and it makes the person smell horrible. Cigarette smoke is not a pleasant odor. it isnt like hickory, mesquite or cedar burning, thats for sure. I used to smoke, started young, quit after 8 years or so. It was nasty. Everything smelled like smoke. I am glad I quit, and I perfer not to be around people who are smoking.

Besides, I didnt realize the prerequisite of being a hardcore project caver was that you had to s moke, or let people smoke on your trips......... thats a new one.

[Cody JW]

Chad, you are free to allow whoever you want on your trips, that is your choice and your right. I am free to tolerate smokers on my trips , my choice and my right. The whole issue that TN and I make is the right to a choice and not having the government make it for you. I agree with you you, it is a nasty habit. I never smoked cigarettes and am glad I never did, especially seeing what our government is doing to those ( in the form of over taxation) who do. The whole issue here is choice and freedom.

[Chads93GT]

Oh hell man I would NEVER want a government regulation for that kind of BS. I cant stand the over reach of the fed and state. Do I like that there is no smoking in bars and restaurants in IL? Sure, its fun to go out and not come home smelling like an ash tray. My drums dont smell like smoke becausae smoking was made illegal at the bars we played out at in college (band). However, that being said, its sad that the decision wasnt allowed to be placed on the business owners, instead of the government. Free market rules. If places want to allow smoking, the people will show up or not show up to spend their money based on that, same with bars. I dont think its the governments place to set that kind of regulation. Its BS. I think smoking in public is a common courtesy thing, such as at a baseball game at busch stadium where smokers used to light up in their seats right next to kids and other people with no regard of others. that is now, not allowed, by the owners of the stadium. Not the government.

[Cody JW]

Well said Chad . Too bad others do not get it. I was at The Indy 500 two weeks ago and there were people on both sides of me smoking, did not bother me at all. It is outdoors. A bar full of smoke does bother me, but I believe in the choice being up to the owner of that business. If he or she feels they can make more money by allowing or not allowing smoking than that should be their choice, not the government. There were several at the race that did go down below the crowded grandstand to smoke, I feel that is the right thing to do. In Indy they just passed a smoking ban that went into effect June 1. Unnecessary government regulation. Funny thing is that federal and local government will say how bad it is for you but they will not make it illegal. The reason is that they are more addicted to the tax revenue than the smokers are to the product. Sad state of affairs.

[Cody JW]

The people who work or perform at bars have the choice and the right to work there or not. I do not like being around dust, so guess what- I will not take a job sanding drywall. My choice , my right. All about freedom and choice.

[Smells_Familiar]

@TN. It is nice to see at least one other person gets it. I will give the younger generation a pass because they do not teach history anymore. They do not understand why this nation was formed to begin with.

What? Where did you get that "fact"? I'm in my early thirties and I was required to take history/social studies/humanities in middle school and high school. In college, History of Western Civilization was required. My son is 12 and he and all of his classmates in middle school are required to take Humanities (which is a double period class and is a combo of History, Geography, and English).

[Smells_Familiar]

I just read the whole thread and learned a few things:

1) cob doesn't fart.

2) almost everyone in this thread dislikes smoking in cave and intoxicated cavers.

3) It's clear that the "no politics on these boards" rule is not enforced in the slightest. Recently, more and more threads are being politicized by a select few right-wing posters. Just callin' it as I see it. I'm not left-wing and I'm not right-wing, I'm someone who tries to keep an open mind, stay objective, and avoid becoming cynical. I'm getting tired of so many threads being derailed into one sided political rants by a few forum posters. Just me? Discussion is good, but one sided ranting is annoying and doesn't accomplish anything. The 8 pages of this thread full of good discussion was never about left/right politics or any type of regulation until some posters chimed in connecting some imaginary dots.

The TOS and the "Please READ ME FIRST before posting" thread clearly state that politics should never be brought into the discussions on these boards.

This post isn't addressing anyone personally, just points people are making, and I'm sure that if we caved together we'd get along famously. However, some of you are allowed to get away with some pretty inflammatory stuff, so I can at least play devil's advocate.

I have caved for years with people who smoke, I do not smoke and prefer not to be around it and the people who go with me do not do it in sensitive formation areas of the cave. It never did bother me. I guess it is this younger generation. I will say that sometimes a cigarette is nice to have if you are looking to follow the air. I do agree with B . Trotter to a certain extent. I prefer not to live in a nanny state, we have lots of that already.

Who said anything political? Nobody's calling for more rules, regs., or fines. Even in the inflammatory post by batrotter that you're referencing there's nothing about politics mentioned. Just whining about "whiners".

Lets face it, If you want to get technical , just the presence of humans in a cave can impact cave biology. You could be stepping on microscopic life and not know it. You can disturb hibernating bats ect. the list goes on and on. If humans want to go in caves they are going to impact something , with or without cigarettes. Why some people want to fool themselves and get on a high horse about cigarettes when they are impacting the cave just by being in there is to me hypocritical.

Every caver caves, but smokers add additional unnecessary damage to the cave environment. Additionally, second-hand smoke is deadly. Caving causes impact to the cave environment that is unavoidable unless you abstain from caving. No one said otherwise. Abstaining from smoking in cave is one easy way to avoid unnecessary negative impact on the cave and life in it. Sorta similar to packing out trash, not pooping in cave, and not burning incense. It should be discouraged.

Bureaucracy has invaded caving. It's too bad there isn't another "new world" to migrate to. This country was founded by people trying to escape bureaucratic "slavery". But it seems many of the pro bureaucrats have followed us to the "new world" and are gradually converting it to the same type of world the founders wanted to escape. I've been around lots of smokers in caves. Although I do not like being in a cave with smokers I have always been tolerant so long as smokers did not leave butts or smoke in a small area near bats, etc. Sometimes tolerance is required to get along.
However, I must admit that I am losing my will to be tolerant of fellow cavers who want to FORCE their ideals upon everyone else.

So leaving butts is a big no-no to you but smoking is just fine? Howzat? Also, who the hell is talking about FORCING people to not smoke? NOBODY! It's funny how just a few people on this forum often times turn threads into a political left vs. right thing when there's no left threat in the first place. Just people people wanting to observe decent cave etiquette and not wanting to be forced to inhale deadly smoke that would be easily avoidable if cavers observed decent cave etiquette. Smoking in a cave is just F-ing selfish when there's temporary fixes like the patch. Guys, our country's evolved since the 1700's, evolution is the way of life! Get over it and adapt, try to make the best out of it and to make the most positive impact you can. Or you can fight to stay static and be eliminated by evolution.

The best objective solution is to look at the most recent, thorough, well done science. Otherwise your just babbling egotistical dogma. We know second-hand cigarette smoke is very bad to breathe and can lead to cancer. We know smoking in a cave causes easily avoidable damage to the cave. We know cavers can easily avoid smoking in caves by using things like the patch. So, I fail to see even a remotely good argument from others trying to condone smoking in caves, unless it serves a practical and necessary purpose for the expedition.

To me, a part of proper cave etiquette is to avoid any unnecessary damage to the cave that can be easily avoided. Also, a part of proper LIFE etiquette involves not harming others if it can be easily avoided. Makes sense. You can look at freedom selfishly and, say, justify dumping 50 gallons of benzene on your property because it's your property...even though your in a watershed upstream from a town that gets their water from that river. Or you can get your head out of your selfish ass and take the extra step and effort to depose of it properly and avoid unnecessary harm to others. Make sense? Smoking in a cave is along those same lines. It unnecessarily harms the environment and others in the cave and it's easily avoidable.

Don't even try and turn this into a big government vs. the small guy thing. Nobody in this thread has even mentioned making smoking in caves illegal or imposing fines ect. My point is to use common sense, good caving etiquette, and don't be a selfish idiot.

I simply find it funny that some think that voicing your opinion on someone smoking in a cave has anything to do with government regulation or nanny state BS.

Exactly!

[tncaver]

I said "I am losing my will to be tolerant of fellow cavers who want to FORCE their ideals upon everyone else." I did not say anything about
forcing people to smoke or not smoke. One example of an ideal being forced upon myself and other cavers, is that of closing caves due to WNS or any other made up excuse to close caves, and it is our GOVERNMENT and some cavers who accomplished that. Therefore Government has FORCED themselves into our caving conversation because they are directly responsible for closing caves that cavers like to visit and many of which have
no bats. Now this thread is getting

You don't have to read this or any other thread if you don't like what is written.