Background Information on Binkley Cave

[GroundquestMSA]

Thanks for that insight, wyandotte. I can recognize all of those positives as possibilities, and the negatives.

I trust his good intentions and do not think this is any kind of attempt on his part to profit at the expense of the best interest of the cave.

Nor do I. I think it's obvious he is a dedicated and responsible person. My complaints were about the claim that the cave would somehow be destroyed or unavailable for future generations without this project. Perhaps so many people have strong negative feelings about commercialization that he exaggerated the benefits of this proposal. At any rate, my indignation has subsided and I apologize if it was the source of any improper harshness.

[Cody JW]

A bit harsh groundquest. Commercialization can be good, bad, or both for a cave. As they say, it all depends.

One thing I am worried about (doesnt mean it will happen) is the "Marengo Effect". A famous case where a map of the Marengo system was humorously drawn as a spiral inside their own property lines. This cave covers a LOT of area and has a lot of people sitting over it.

If you are on Everton's list they have on several occasions sent out topo over lays of the recent surveys . Also if you have Gary's book there are several topo overlays of the earlier surveys. Again , anyone who wants to be on Everton's list to get weekly updates and trip reports and these overlays can have access to this info. I do not think there will be any attempt to misrepresent the actual boundaries of the cave. Cavers have a reputation for being secretive especially project cavers, but this group is as open with their info as any I have seen.

[wyandottecaver]

Jeff,

yes, I get the emails, and yes the project has been very forthcoming with data. They might still continue to be. But all of that was prior to the idea of commercialization. Anyone who knows the history of Marengo knows about the in-cave fence. Thus Gary knows first-hand you can pick your friends but not your neighbors. It is also not hard to imagine someone deciding to put in their own personal entrance later if they happened to own the right spot and had the resources to do so. As I said above, not that it will happen, but the considerations involved in a commercial venture underlying the property of possibly dozens of owners can be a little different than pushing a wild project cave.

[Cody JW]

I understand what you are saying about the past with Marengo ( I had never heard that before but I am no expert on the history of Marengo) but in this case the topo over lays are already out there for the public to see. Not sure if that was the case back during the Marengo incident you speak of. I do not understand your concern about the same thing happening here, unless of course The ISS were to stop sharing info like they currently do. Things could change, but I know Dave Everton and I suspect as long as he is involved the info will be out there for anyone to see. I could be wrong , I have met Gary but do not know him well.

[wyandottecaver]

Jeff,

basically a neighbor owned property over the cave (and figured that out) and required them to install a fence at the property line (cutting off a significant section) inside the cave since he owned that area by law.

[Cody JW]

I understand that. I remember the same kind of thing happened back in the 20s during the cave wars at Mammoth Cave. I do not know the exact date of this Marengo map that misrepresents boundaries but I bet is was before Gary had any interest in the cave. My whole point is that these incidents you speak of Gary likely had nothing to with. So why the concern ?? If a landowner wishes to blast his own entrance and attempt to prosper from it there is really not much that can be done. A commercial cave is a risky business venture, especially in this current economy. I would be surprised if there are any takers. If one is willing to take that risk they will need to find someone who has expertise in that field. Someone like Gary or Gordon.

[David Grimes]

I was curious how big the piece of land is that he was planning on purchasing. There is really only one large lot in the area of the intersection of those two roads (which is the one I expect he is interested in). It looks like the entire lot is about 75 acres. I am curious how much of the cave is under that property, I guess if the overlays are available I could find out. There is the possibility he is buying multiple lots from the owners.

I am mostly curious about how much of the cave they plan to use for the tours.

EDIT: I looked at the overlays and it looks like the piece of land I mentioned might hold about 3/4 mile of cave underneath it which should be plenty for a commercial cave tour.

[mtwebb96]

I am sure no historian but I believe the fence in Marengo Cave and the dispute in court happened around 1929. This event led to the closure of a part of Marengo with a fence put up inside the cave that the landowner had no access to. Much more famous disputes can be found in the cave wars around Mammoth Cave. George Morrison and his crew knew Mammoth cave extended far outside of the owners property. Problem was the estate kept the maps close to the heart. If my memory from Brucker and Watson's book "The Longest Cave" are correct, Morrison sent in people to trespass and set off explosives where he could observe in suspected sinkholes on property he controlled for a possible "New" Entrance to the cave system. His motives (it seems) were a attempt to siphon off the "very limited tourist dollars" that were being spent on the "Famous Mammoth Cave". This was also in the teens and twentys of the last century. Morrison found his new entrance to Mammoth. However, I dont think he found a ton of wealth from these adventures. (Another famous ruse from the Mammoth area was when Bill Austin blasted an entrance into what he told the National Park Service was a back door to Crystal Cave even though it went directly into Unknown Cave in the 50s)
This was a time when we had very little data avaliable to the public and the surrounding land owners. Cave owners kept these maps secret. They didnt want a neighbor to take money out of their pockets by opening an entrance to a very well known and popular attraction with so few dollars to go around.
How does all this relate to Binkleys Cave? First off its 2012 not 1929 and with social media and the internet much more information is avaliable today! For over 50 years Binkleys has been explored and recently proved to be a very significant cave. The website that Dave Everton has is transparent, no one has tried to mislead or keep info from anyone, not just cavers but even local landowners. Second, developing and running a commercial cave is at best a risky venture. Most likely its easier to open, maintain and turn a profit from a new restraunt. With the failure rate of restraunts this is not a get rich venture period! Outside of the caving community and I would say even in Corydon Indiana not many people have even heard of Binkleys Cave. I feel fears of a fence or a cave war over a commercial Binkleys Cave could happen but the odds are not too great. Knowing Gary, Fig, Benton and many of the key figures in the exploration of this cave the last 50+ years I doubt the motives are to get rich but to only protect a cave they have spent a lifetime in and hold close to their hearts!

[David Grimes]

Mark, I agree with you mostly. I really feel the chance that someone else would be interested in opening an entrance and operating their own tour cave are pretty low. In this day and age with everyone suing over anything I would be very careful to make sure to stay well within my property line.

I would not say it is not a get rich venture since it would be hard to get investors to back you without a reasonable business plan for making the money back. This would likely be a huge expense from widening the road to blasting the entrance. Then you still need to build all the walk ways and a building (assuming one does not exist on the property). Owning a commercial cave might not make you an overnight millionaire but there is a good sum of money involved. I am sure Gary and all his investors would not be willing to sink the large sum of money needed unless they planned to make a large sum of money in return.

I am not saying their intentions for the cave are not good, I do not doubt they truly wish to protect the cave but to assume they would start this venture without the goal of making the money back in a reasonable amount of time for an investment seems unlikely.

[mtwebb96]

I would not say it is not a get rich venture since it would be hard to get investors to back you without a reasonable business plan for making the money back. This would likely be a huge expense from widening the road to blasting the entrance. Then you still need to build all the walk ways and a building (assuming one does not exist on the property). Owning a commercial cave might not make you an overnight millionaire but there is a good sum of money involved. I am sure Gary and all his investors would not be willing to sink the large sum of money needed unless they planned to make a large sum of money in return.

David, With all due respect I would say your idea and mine of a get rich venture are a ways apart! I dont need a PHD from IU in Economics to figure out normal people dont invest in and start new businesses without wanting to turn a profit. Successful Businesses are that way because of great service, hard work, good management, great staff or workers and a great product. Successful businesses also creat jobs and pay taxes. In this case if it were approved and happened it very well could bring more tourist dollars into the Corydon Area.

[David Grimes]

I guess the term get rich venture is not the proper way to put it. I fully understand your meaning and simply put, I would assume they expect a yearly profit in the six figures to make the project viable. A business in the tourism industry that is making that much in the Corydon area would be considered quite successful. Would you be rich from operating a show cave with a six figure profit margin, not right away but you could collect substantial wealth over your lifetime owning the cave. I realize that in this case there are several partners who will be getting a cut so the profits will be lower but my figures are likely not that far off.

As for the tourism and adding to the economy in Corydon, I agree with you completely. Anything that will bring more jobs into the area is a good thing even if they are likely to be minimum wage jobs.

[KyleCobain1]

Since this new show cave section is within 3 to 5 miles of my house I'm looking forward to the opening. Also interested in finding out where else the cave might lead & if it might be somewhere even closer to my property.
I've always been interested in caves & have always wanted to go caving & explore new caves but never had the extra money to invest in the equipment needed. So I'm always happy to hear about new caaves in the area.
Thanks just wanted to share that.