Cave map resource poll! (Read First Post Before Voting)

[DeanWiseman]

When I looked at, I sort of counted those in-betweener votes as quasi-abstentions, but that's just me. The real story is the bi-modal distribution.

-Dean

[David Grimes]

I personally did not think the the three categories would be such a problem. I really feel it is pretty obvious that your vote would be counted as a yes if you chose any of the top three choices.

Even if the event of a new poll everyone would likely be disappointed since most of the people who voted would not do so again. Cavechat polls rarely reach 54 votes in a time period of just two weeks. If we ran this poll again we would be lucky to get half the people to vote again.

Maybe we should just have a poll to determine how to read the poll results .

[David Grimes]

And while I'm picking on minor sins I must admit that I've just completed a perusal of the 29 pages worth of Cavechat search results for the word "ideal." Thankfully, only two (completely anonymous ) users substitute "ideal" for "idea." Is it a regional thing?

I admit I do misuse the terms here on this forum occasionally. If you actually look around it really is a regional thing even though it's technically misusing the term since they have different meanings. Sometimes the problem is simply the auto correct feature on the devices I use to post to the forum and other times I am just in a hurry to type a message and get offline. I do fully understand the difference between the two words and the correct usage. While batrotter is correct in a lot of cases (especially in writing) it is still a regional thing. In fact in southern Indiana it is very common to misuse the two terms. It is also common for people to misunderstand people from this same area when they say the word "idea" since they tend to almost make the L sound at the end.

There is my explanation to you Groundquest since you were so interested.

Sorry this post is completely .

[GroundquestMSA]

No snobbery was intended. You clearly use good grammar, which is what made me curious. I have heard plenty of people verbalize an "l" on the end of "idea." Incidentally, the other user who does the same thing is also from Indiana.

[David Grimes]

Southern Indiana people really have a unique way of pronouncing things. Most people I know from this area tend to use the incorrect word or at least sound like they do. I really do not see many writing samples so I cannot confirm that positively. We also pronounce very easy words in odd ways. For instance most people in my area pronounce Louisville, Ky. (lool-vool) even though it is obviously incorrect. I guess it's just one of those strange regional speech anomalies.

[Chads93GT]

Southern Indiana people really have a unique way of pronouncing things. Most people I know from this area tend to use the incorrect word or at least sound like they do. I really do not see many writing samples so I cannot confirm that positively. We also pronounce very easy words in odd ways. For instance most people in my area pronounce Louisville, Ky. (lool-vool) even though it is obviously incorrect. I guess it's just one of those strange regional speech anomalies.

It is a speech anomalie, and it makes me laugh. I work with a dude who moved to St. Louis from the louisville area and he Says "Saint Louis", I should as him why he doesnt say "Saint Lool"

[Extremeophile]

I wonder if the WVU students who were recently rescued from Bone-Norman had a map? I suspect not, and it seems plausible that if they had one then they may have been able to locate the Bone entrance and avoid a rescue. Learning whether they had a map or not might go a long way towards settling this debate about whether having a map increases or decreases caving safety.

[caverdoug]

I wonder if the WVU students who were recently rescued from Bone-Norman had a map? I suspect not, and it seems plausible that if they had one then they may have been able to locate the Bone entrance and avoid a rescue. Learning whether they had a map or not might go a long way towards settling this debate about whether having a map increases or decreases caving safety.

As far as we can tell they did not have a map nor had they ever seen a full map. The question of whether a map would have been helpful to them finding their own way out is something we will never know. I do know that if we would have known they had a copy of the map with them and they were still lost we would have considered escalating the effort even a little further.

[Roppelcaver]

Interesting. At Roppel, we do not make maps generally available to non-project folks. We know who have maps and this is reasonably controlled. This is for a reason. There are a number of rogue cavers who do get into the cave... and before you call us elitist, read on.

The complexity of the the cave is its best "gate". We have a number of very sensitive areas that are still in good shape due to this. At one time, there were a lot of unknown folks going into the cave. Although we knew this, there was little we could do. None of these folks, at that time, were able to find their way into the main cave.

Some non-caver owners have gladfully shared keys to their cave entrance (well, it is their cave). On one hand, requested maps were to support through trips to "closed" entrances. We have had other requests for maps so "we can explore and try to find a connection to so and so cave," or to just "check leads". Projects are hard enough without random people exploring the cave as you map it. And, in the case of Roppel, the distances are so vast (through trips of 5+ miles that require speedy caving) and complex that great care is required (planning, skills, etc.). I am not adverse to others doing these trips, I just want to be confident that they can do it safely (for themselves and the cave). And, in particular to Roppel, it is not clear the map can help that much with navigation anyway -- the routes are subtle and inobvious and hard to show on a map (maps are not complete enough to be roadmaps).

Whether we gave out maps or not, the issue is maps likely increase traffic and damage to the cave. A lack of maps has never been the cause of a rescue in Roppel (and there are more than survey trips in there, and by folks who never had been associated with the project).

Would a map averted a rescue in Bone-Norman this past weekend? Likely, I suppose. But, if they were able to get a map a lot of other folks would have been able to also. More traffic, more probability of rescue. Not sure what the right answer is, although a false sense of security challenges good judgement. Maps, in some cases, may enable that.

My biased opinion, only!

[Extremeophile]

I certainly will concede that not having a map is a poor excuse for needing a rescue. If attempting a through-trip in a cave you're unfamiliar with, a group should be prepared to retrace their steps and go back out the way they came in. It seems they didn't pay enough attention to the route and didn't have the stamina nor light to make it back to the Norman entrance.

Jim... Your point about maps increasing visitation is probably true, and although a map might have prevented this rescue, it's hard to anticipate every possible scenario and the role a map might play in causing or avoiding other safety incidents. I like to think that increased visitation doesn't necessarily equate to increased damage, but then other factors such as mentoring and education need to come into play. For my own maps I've been thinking of adding a conservation message on all of them because you never know where they'll end up or who will use them. Conservation messages on maps seems to be a rarity.

I still am of the opinion that having a map increases safety since you can evaluate objective hazards before a trip (e.g. pits, water, amount of crawling, overall distance to be traveled, etc.) and you can track progress during a trip (visualization of route traveled, gauge distance to an objective or back to the entrance, identify high elevation areas in the event of flood entrapment, etc.).

[Roppelcaver]

I am old school I suppose.

You made a good point that if they could not retrace their steps, shame on them. That is fundamental. Over-dependence on a map is an easy trap. A map is a tool, not a substitute for experience. I think we all agree on that.

Does increased traffic increase damage? Certainly in many caves it does, but not all of them. I think in Roppel it would.

I can see nothing but trouble if Roppel maps were available to whomever wanted an adventure. Arguably, this is likely an exception since a map in Roppel does not really help in some areas (too complicated) and will make for lost cavers. For smaller caves, a map may be asset. When I was a beginner caver, Caverns of West Virginia was a great reference. It had neat maps of caves. I copied them and visited the more interesting looking ones. Not sure I would have gone to some caves if I had not seen the map. Not sure how much, in the end, the map helped me in my trips (stayed away from caves with pits though, and this was in the descriptions), but it was a catalyst for visitation.

I guess in the end it depends, and one answer does not fit all scenarios.

[wyandottecaver]

Whether we like to admit it or not, visitation does generally impact caves to one degree or another even if only very slightly. Visitation is also what creates cavers and more importantly cave conservationists.

[ejelinton]

While I haven't posted anything in the past, I guess here is a good enough place to start. I am all for protecting caves, bats, wildlife, nature, land owner relations etc. Everyone caves for their own enjoyment, or they wouldn't do it at all. I have done some limited survey, but mostly just cave for fun. I am all for sharing maps that you have permission to post.

This brings me to my question in regard to Roppelcaver's post:

Projects are hard enough without random people exploring the cave as you map it.

Just curious as to how having people not in the project really affects the survey. The cave will not change so much as to require a resurvey, unless all the random people are digging, which is highly unlikely. All things being equal, shouldn't it be up to the owners who goes in or not? Hopefully my first post doesn't cause too much of an uproar, just curious.

[wyandottecaver]

The "cave wars" never really ended in KY......they just errr went underground

[Roppelcaver]

In some caves, visitation may and does have a significant impact. In Roppel, some areas can take the traffic, buth there are some that clearly cannot and we have the damage to prove it. This is indisputable. Some caves/areas should never have open visitation.

The thread, partly due to me (sorry), has been drifting a little off center. I was explaining my personal reluctance, in the case of Roppel, of making maps generally available.

To answer Ejeleton's question about my comment:

"Projects are hard enough without random people exploring the cave as you map it."

This comment was solely in reference to not wanting random people exploring leads that are not vested in the project. This is bad for survey morale, and is why we pulled trips reports from our public webpage. Arguably this could be considered selfish, but project momentum can so easily falter.

Of course the ower owns the cave. We don't tell the owner who he/she can or can't let in, although we may advise him/her about the need for caver experience and cave sensitivity.