Zebralight H600

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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby Extremeophile » Jan 4, 2012 3:26 pm

Ryan, there's no question that the Spark and Zebralight are more efficient than the Sten (i.e. more lumens per watt). I think the run times you posted for the newer XM-L lights are based on a Panasonic NCR 2900Ah 18650 battery, whereas the Sten run times are based on 2300-2600Ah 18650s. A little bit of an apples to oranges comparison. I might expect that these newer lights can give approximately 50% longer run time at the same lumen output using the same battery. It's difficult to impossible to get good direct comparisons between lights because the lumen output settings aren't always the same, batteries used for run times aren't the same, lumen measurement standards aren't the same, etc. Zebralight does seem to do a particularly good job with their control circuitry and optics to get close to the ideal efficiency for the LEDs they utilize.
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby rlboyce » Jan 4, 2012 6:53 pm

Extremeophile wrote:Ryan, there's no question that the Spark and Zebralight are more efficient than the Sten (i.e. more lumens per watt). I think the run times you posted for the newer XM-L lights are based on a Panasonic NCR 2900Ah 18650 battery, whereas the Sten run times are based on 2300-2600Ah 18650s. A little bit of an apples to oranges comparison. I might expect that these newer lights can give approximately 50% longer run time at the same lumen output using the same battery. It's difficult to impossible to get good direct comparisons between lights because the lumen output settings aren't always the same, batteries used for run times aren't the same, lumen measurement standards aren't the same, etc. Zebralight does seem to do a particularly good job with their control circuitry and optics to get close to the ideal efficiency for the LEDs they utilize.


Well put! I recognized this fact but chose to neglect mentioning it in my post because things were already getting overly technical and I feared my point would be lost somewhere in a mass of numbers. This wasn't really "cheating" since batteries have their own "efficiencies" (Wh/charge), and a battery is simply an extension of the light. In the case of a Sten, the average consumer is not knowledgeable about making a custom battery pack and is more or less stuck with what Sten offers, whereas with a Zebra or Spark you can easily swap between batteries of different qualities. Yes, the Zebra numbers are likely coming from a higher capacity cell, but of course I'm sure you know that capacity ratings are also sometimes an apples to oranges comparison in themselves as each manufacturer has a different method of testing (the problem being that cell capacity varies with given loads). For instance, a Panasonic "2900Ah" only has a capacity of about 2600Ah when subjected to a load of 2A (close to the Zebra on turbo). This raises the question: did the Sten manufacturer calculate the capacities from the cells he put together (or restate from a pre-assembled pack he bought) or measure the capacity under a typical Sten load? We will probably never know, but the answer is very important if you want the comparison to be accurate without physically using the same batteries and running each of them dry.

All that being said, your estimate of 1.5x is quite possibly more accurate than my 2x estimate. You said it best when you said it's difficult or impossible to know for sure (paraphrasing). So... yes, the Zebralight and Spark are more efficient than the Sten, but I'll admit probably not twice as efficient. Regardless, all three are still good lights and any caver would be happy to own one of these.
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby rlboyce » Jan 4, 2012 7:26 pm

The neutral version of the H600 (called the H600w) is now in stock. Rejoice, my friends! :big grin:

If you were thinking about getting one, I'd recommend doing it sooner than later. Personally, I've already ordered mine, and made sure to do so before telling you guys so that I didn't lose my chance. The H600 is still on back order right now, and the H600w might soon join it if it's anywhere near as popular as the H600 is.

When I get my light, I'll give you guys a review with pictures. I'll try to borrow on of my friends' Stens to take some comparison shots as well.
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby Chads93GT » Jan 4, 2012 10:43 pm

bleh, im a light whore. I ordered one too. i sorta want to ditch all of my AA rigs anyway. this will give me a 3rd light as a backup in my pack ;)
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby rlboyce » Jan 4, 2012 11:15 pm

Holy crap Chad... you're insane! Hahaha...
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby Chads93GT » Jan 4, 2012 11:18 pm

ehh, after what happend a month ago, id rather have 3 friggin awesome lights on my person, than 1 good one and 2 shit lights.
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby rlboyce » Jan 4, 2012 11:37 pm

In my opinion, all that is missing in your setup is a light with superior throw. You've got the Spark that has a diffuser for wide light. You have the Zebra that is a great combo between wide and concentrated. Now you need pure concentrated. As just a thought, maybe cancel your H600w order (probably too late at this point) and looking for a handheld light that maybe can be mounted to the side of your helmet. It's hard to find good throwers in the headlamp world, but they are a dime a dozen in the handheld flashlight world, and some of them seem to pierce the dark for miles.

These look awesome: http://www.armytek.com/armytek_predator.html. Watch the video. They shoot it with a friggin' shotgun and it still works, LOL!!
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby rlboyce » Jan 8, 2012 3:23 pm

Chads93GT wrote:well i only got those purple 2400mah models. not the green ones i also saw for sale on amazon......... which do you recommend/


Chad, I've done a ridiculous amount of researching today and yesterday on 18650s, and now I can tell you a little more about the cells you bought. BE CAREFUL.

These are not protected, so if you overcharge or overdischarge them you'll render them unusable. You shouldn't have to worry much about overcharging if you have a decent charger, but I'd still be careful if I were you by checking the voltages with a voltmeter (chargers can conceivably go bad). There is also not much concern about overdischarging in the H600 since it has a low voltage cutoff (but remember circuits can fail), however you may not want to use these in your Spark ST6-500CW since I'm not so sure it has a voltage cutoff like the H600 does... the Spark may drain the battery too far. With a protected battery, there is an extra level of protection if for whatever reason your charger or light does "some weird shit." (:big grin:)

In addition, while this may (or may not, the topic is still debated) be a safer battery composition than your standard 18650 (bet you didn't realize that when you bought it :wink:), it may still be susceptible to thermal runaway. In other words, overcharging this could possibly cause some very undesirable and dangerous effects.

In short, I'm not going to tell you to not use them (because I'd probably use them), but I will tell you that you should probably keep an eye on them if you do.
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby Chads93GT » Jan 8, 2012 7:33 pm

I ordered some 3100 may Panasonic rechargeables too.
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby rlboyce » Jan 8, 2012 8:26 pm

What kind? Were they "Redilast", "AW" or "Callie's Kustoms"? These are brands that take the Panasonic 3100 (NCR18650A), put a protection circuit on the end and cover it in their own wrapper. If you bought a bare green cell that only says "Panasonic", be advised that it's probably not protected. Again, not being protected isn't a massively huge deal, but it is highly recommended that you keep a very close eye on it or before you realize it the cell will be toast.

On the positive side, protected or not, you now possess some of what are argued to be the best cells out there right now. That's why companies like Redilast base their protected cells off of them, and charge top dollar. You will get even better runtimes than what Zebralight posts on their website, because they based their numbers off a 2900 cell (SWEET!!).
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby Chads93GT » Jan 8, 2012 10:04 pm

rlboyce wrote:What kind? Were they "Redilast", "AW" or "Callie's Kustoms"? These are brands that take the Panasonic 3100 (NCR18650A), put a protection circuit on the end and cover it in their own wrapper. If you bought a bare green cell that only says "Panasonic", be advised that it's probably not protected. Again, not being protected isn't a massively huge deal, but it is highly recommended that you keep a very close eye on it or before you realize it the cell will be toast.

On the positive side, protected or not, you now possess some of what are argued to be the best cells out there right now. That's why companies like Redilast base their protected cells off of them, and charge top dollar. You will get even better runtimes than what Zebralight posts on their website, because they based their numbers off a 2900 cell (SWEET!!).

I ordered these. Hope they show up before TAG.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0593479080
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby Chads93GT » Jan 8, 2012 10:05 pm

This was the description.

Brand New and never been use. All tested before pack
Original Panasonic (Industrial) products, Made in Japan

Specifications:
Capacity: 3100mAh (Min 2950mAh)
Max charge current 0.7C 2A
Recommend discharge current 1C 2.9A
Discharge Termination Voltage: 2.5V
Size 18.6mm x 65.2mm
Weight : 45g
Positive with button, fit for flashlight and other common application

Package Includes:
Panasonic NCR18650 Li-ion Rechargeable 3.6v Battery x6
Ultrafire Battery Case for 2x18650/4xCR123A x3(Random color)
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby rlboyce » Jan 8, 2012 11:04 pm

Yep, those are unprotected. In theory if your Zebra doesn't malfunction and your charger doesn't malfunction you shouldn't have to worry about it too much. They're awesome cells, they just can be a little less safe under certain conditions if you aren't careful (sorry for sounding like a broken record). I would be extra cautious in using them in the Spark though (actually, I'd avoid it completely).

I know it's a little too late to mention this now, but these guys offer the same cells for a buck and a half less per cell with free shipping for anything over 2: http://www.intl-outdoor.com/panasonic-ncr18650a-3100mah-liion-battery-p-213.html
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby Chads93GT » Jan 8, 2012 11:24 pm

rlboyce wrote:Yep, those are unprotected. In theory if your Zebra doesn't malfunction and your charger doesn't malfunction you shouldn't have to worry about it too much. They're awesome cells, they just can be a little less safe under certain conditions if you aren't careful (sorry for sounding like a broken record). I would be extra cautious in using them in the Spark though (actually, I'd avoid it completely).

I know it's a little too late to mention this now, but these guys offer the same cells for a buck and a half less per cell with free shipping for anything over 2: http://www.intl-outdoor.com/panasonic-ncr18650a-3100mah-liion-battery-p-213.html



HOw about I just use them in my zebra(s) and use the solarforce ones I got with the spark, in the spark. All i have for now is that damn cheap $10 charger from the spark website that came with the solarforce batteries. I need to get one of those pila ibc chargers...........

I also have some of these.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-CGR1865 ... 972&sr=8-2
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Re: Zebralight H600

Postby rlboyce » Jan 9, 2012 6:28 am

The rules that apply to your 3100 green cells also apply to these 2400 purple ones, so yeah I'd probably only use your Solarforces in the Spark.

Yeah, those Pilas come highly recommended. Can't go wrong with that one, but it is rather expensive.
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