Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Discuss caving lights, packs, helmets, clothing, etc.
For rope and vertical equipment, go to the On Rope! forum.
Cave electronics enthusiasts can also visit the Communications and Electronics Section forum.

Moderator: Moderators

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby NSS8921 » Aug 25, 2011 7:56 am

Caver John wrote 'Has anyone used a spark without the reflector? I hear this provides a nice flood...' I have the 460, and without the reflector, it is a flood like the Zebralight H60 but much brighter at top settings. Quite nice, perhaps for photography, but at this point I prefer the diffuser lens for caving. But even with the clear lens (and reflector) it has nice spill, better than the Fenix HP10 (without the Fenix diffuser).

John Robinson
NSS8921
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Sep 15, 2009 11:14 am
NSS #: 8921
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Dogwood City Grotto
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby LukeM » Aug 25, 2011 8:19 am

Extremeophile wrote:I don't have any "official" specifications. Below are the values for the Sten Premium (why even consider the regular S7?) that I received when I inquired in Nov '09.


Image

When I received the lamp I charged the battery and ran in on "high" (level 3) and it went 20 hours before stepping down. A little over a year later I tried this again and got 25 hours. I'm not sure if the battery is holding more charge or if the circuitry is delivering fewer amps to the emitter (and therefore reduced lumen output). They claim that their lumen ratings are OTF and conservative and I tend to believe this based on comparisons to other lights. There are more efficient lights now with the Cree XP-G and XM-L LEDs, but manufacturers haven't put them into a lamp package that is as appealing to cavers as the Sten. The small, light weight aluminum head coupled to a Li-ion battery is hard to beat. That's why so many people own them.


If the Sten Premium is still using Rebel 100's like last I heard then 370 lumens seems pretty realistic for sending 980mA to each LED. The Stenlight website is not up to date. For those comparing to other lights, keep in mind that the general rule of thumb is that 100% increase in lumens leads to about a 50% increase in perceived brightness. Also, because of differences in beams it's always hard to make direct comparisons.
User avatar
LukeM
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Jan 30, 2008 2:53 pm
Location: Albany, NY
Name: Luke Mazza
NSS #: 59317
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Syracuse University Outing Club
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby Extremeophile » Aug 25, 2011 8:43 am

Also, because of differences in beams it's always hard to make direct comparisons.

A lot of truth in this statement. The Scurion has identical LEDs, but one is for flood and one has a lens for spot. The levels for each LED are the same current draw and the same lumen output, but the spot, even on the lowest setting, is extremely bright (high lumens per square foot) compared to the flood. The Sten on turbo may look weaker than the Fenix HP-10 at 200 lumens, but the beam pattern is completely different. The Sten beam is much easier to cave with.

On a tangent... I recently bought the CustomDuo side module with the Cree XP-G LED for my old (original) Duo and like it very much. I got the cd703-xpg to replace the incandescent side of the Duo, which was virtually useless. This module puts out 260 lumens (high) for ~3 hours or 140 lumens (medium) for ~6 hours. I tested mine on a set of Eneloops and got 7 hours on the medium setting before it stepped down. I got the one with the "forward bias flood" optics and really like the beam pattern. I think it's exactly the right balance of spot and flood for general caving. It was only about $55 delivered. So many great lights to choose from these days.
User avatar
Extremeophile
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Dec 7, 2009 7:37 pm
Location: Littleton, CO
Name: Derek Bristol
NSS #: 34941
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Colorado Grotto
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby YuccaPatrol » Aug 25, 2011 10:21 am

It still boggles my mind that Sten makes such a fantastic lamp but has remained in the dark ages with their LED technology that is now several generations behind the times. It's such a great lamp but I get so much more light and efficiency for the same or less $$$ with the European built stuff.

So where is the Sten II ?
User avatar
YuccaPatrol
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 399
Joined: Oct 12, 2006 7:54 am
Name: Andrew Mobley
NSS #: 58447
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Huntsville Grotto
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby Cody JW » Aug 25, 2011 10:22 am

Extremeophile wrote:
Also, because of differences in beams it's always hard to make direct comparisons.

A lot of truth in this statement. The Scurion has identical LEDs, but one is for flood and one has a lens for spot. The levels for each LED are the same current draw and the same lumen output, but the spot, even on the lowest setting, is extremely bright (high lumens per square foot) compared to the flood. The Sten on turbo may look weaker than the Fenix HP-10 at 200 lumens, but the beam pattern is completely different. The Sten beam is much easier to cave with.

On a tangent... I recently bought the CustomDuo side module with the Cree XP-G LED for my old (original) Duo and like it very much. I got the cd703-xpg to replace the incandescent side of the Duo, which was virtually useless. This module puts out 260 lumens (high) for ~3 hours or 140 lumens (medium) for ~6 hours. I tested mine on a set of Eneloops and got 7 hours on the medium setting before it stepped down. I got the one with the "forward bias flood" optics and really like the beam pattern. I think it's exactly the right balance of spot and flood for general caving. It was only about $55 delivered. So many great lights to choose from these days.
I have last years model CD1003 for my duo. It has an output listed at over 300 lumens . You have to use eneloops to achieve that. So far I have only used alkalines in it as I have a large supply and it appears to be about as bright as The HP-10. The Duo insert has two bulbs that run at one time, one is for flood and the other for spot.This is a very nice combination for caving .On the other side I have the old 14 insert that is outdated tech. but seems to be efficeint , has a nice spill but no spot. You can carry you "old" bulbs in your pack to change out in the cave in the rare event something happened to your bulbs. I still say if you already own the duo and are looking for a current generation light that I feel the Duo with the Custom Duo insert is the best way to go without spending 400 bucks or more. Sure, the light design is close to 20 years old but for about the same price as an HP-10 ( no spill) or Apex ( battery hog) you can put a current generation very efficient bulb in a light you already own that has proven to me to be cave worthy.I use the stuff you buy in the auto parts stores for car bulbs on the contacts in the battery case and never had the first problem in 18 years. I doubt if anyone will be able to get that kind of duration out of a Fennix or HP-10. I use my duo for horizontal and on a second ecrin I have the HP-10 for pit yo yos .
It only takes one person to surrender a dog to a kill shelter ,but it takes many to rescue it.
User avatar
Cody JW
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 905
Joined: Oct 24, 2007 10:16 am
Location: Indianapolis In. USA
Name: Jeff Cody
NSS #: 23961
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby Jon » Aug 26, 2011 2:46 am

Ok I may be late to the subject but I too had heard conflicting info on run times and lumens for the Sten Prem 7. So I wrote them and here is their response in part These times by the way are for the SMALLER battery, the larger is double the figures show. Sten does sell a AA (6) power supply that with quality bats will equal these times, Lith Ion's a little better. Lumens are one thing, how they are dispersed is the really important thing


Here are approximate typical run times for an S7+ premium lamp:
Low: 10 days
Medium: 36 hours
High: 8 hours
Turbo: 2 hours (no thermal limiting) to 4 hours (thermal limiting)

300 lumens is a typical amount of the output under thermal limiting at
room temperature, though it can be lower in a very hot environment with no
air flow. 450 is a typical amount when first turned on (before thermal
limiting kicks in) or in a cold environment or with really good airflow.

We do plan to make a version of the battery with a molded plastic case
that will be as waterproof as the lamp.


Hope that clears things up . And yes the ability to change the frosted buttons on the Sten is something not found on most other lights, also Stens can be upgraded or rebuilt..... :kewl:
User avatar
Jon
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 241
Joined: May 22, 2010 11:29 pm
NSS #: 60164
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Cochise County Cavers
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby rlboyce » Aug 26, 2011 6:50 pm

I must admit that if the Stens used current LED tech, as stingy as I am, I'd still buy one in a heart beat. Save for the output, they have the best of every world. As better LEDs don't seem to be in the manufacturer's plans for the near future, I'll personally be buying something with more lumens for much, much cheaper.

I didn't major in electronics... do any of you know if 980mA is going to EACH led or if it is divided among the two?? I assume each, given the large calculated numbers by Sten, and if so, then yes the larger estimates are quite possible.
Happiness can be measured in mud/in².
User avatar
rlboyce
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Jan 22, 2010 7:26 pm
Location: Chambersburg, Pennsylvania
Name: Ryan Boyce
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby tncaver » Aug 26, 2011 7:26 pm

Deleted.
Last edited by tncaver on Aug 27, 2011 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tncaver
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2640
Joined: May 17, 2007 7:03 pm
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby Jon » Aug 26, 2011 8:34 pm

Ok what has more lumens and is much cheaper? Narrow pencil beams do nothing for me but a Sten with frosted optics fills in with spill but still with some reach out and touch. Most people I've seen with a Sten have frosted optics so it is easy to see how some might think some pencil beam is brighter. It is and it isn't. The first Sten I saw had no frosted optics and I can tell you that puppy had all kinds of reach out and touch. Compare that to one of the pencil beam $100 wonders and see what happens. Also remember the Stem comes with a Battery that far exceeds AA's And I notice someone asked how good is the $10 charger. Well about $40 of your Sten cost is a smokin charger, and again a Sten can be rebuilt and obviously as we have seen was/is upgradeable. Maybe your dislike of their LED's will change when something better comes along that will fit and or work within their current chassis. I don't know I just like the idea that if I crack the lens I can replace it for $10 Try that with a Fenex.....or just glob some glue along the crack see how good the light throws then (and how waterproof).

Stens are adaptable, helmet or belt mount battery, AA, 9 volt or a choice of two Lith Ion batteries. Changeable optics, replaceable lens and other parts, You get what you pay for. The other lights are disposable not rebuildable. Pretty much STens are about the only affordable rebuildable/adaptable light.
User avatar
Jon
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 241
Joined: May 22, 2010 11:29 pm
NSS #: 60164
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Cochise County Cavers
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby LukeM » Aug 26, 2011 9:33 pm

rlboyce wrote:I must admit that if the Stens used current LED tech, as stingy as I am, I'd still buy one in a heart beat. Save for the output, they have the best of every world. As better LEDs don't seem to be in the manufacturer's plans for the near future, I'll personally be buying something with more lumens for much, much cheaper.

I didn't major in electronics... do any of you know if 980mA is going to EACH led or if it is divided among the two?? I assume each, given the large calculated numbers by Sten, and if so, then yes the larger estimates are quite possible.


Yes, it would have to be 980mA to each for the total draw to be 7 Watts. ~3.5V (typical voltage for LED at max current) x 980mA = ~3.5 Watts. The thing about the Rebel LED form factor is that Luxeon hasn't really kept pace with other manufacturers like Cree. They do have some really nice warmer/neutral colored LED's, but the efficiency and maximum possible lumens is falling behind the competition. For reference, one of the latest Cree XP-G can hit 350 lumens at 1000mA, and has a maximum recommended current of 1.5 amps.
User avatar
LukeM
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Jan 30, 2008 2:53 pm
Location: Albany, NY
Name: Luke Mazza
NSS #: 59317
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Syracuse University Outing Club
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby Extremeophile » Aug 27, 2011 12:31 pm

LukeM wrote:Yes, it would have to be 980mA to each for the total draw to be 7 Watts. ~3.5V (typical voltage for LED at max current) x 980mA = ~3.5 Watts.

The 3.6V 18650 Li-ion cells are wired in series for 7.2V total, so the current is for both LEDs, not each.

I don't know how "upgradeable" the Sten Luxeon LEDs would be. I hear a lot of people complaining that the LEDs in the Sten are outdated, but I've never read of anyone performing an upgrade despite there being a lot of Stens out there. I don't know much about the process, but I guess the emitter would need to fit the existing heat sink and optics, and maybe this isn't as straightforward as it seems.

Lighting technology seems to be advancing much like computer CPUs (Moore's Law?). You can sit around and debate the tradeoffs of this or that light and continue to wait for promises of the "perfect" headlamp to be commercialized, or you can just choose the best light to match the type of caving you do and take the leap... just go caving and don't loose sleep over whether you're getting 100 or 150 lumens per watt.

I spent waaay more on a Scurion then I think is justified by competitive market value, but I feel it's already delivered a return on investment in terms of value to me on cave trips. I used the Sten for 18 months and was extremely happy with it. I think anyone that decides to invest in one will be very happy, even with outdated LEDs.
User avatar
Extremeophile
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Dec 7, 2009 7:37 pm
Location: Littleton, CO
Name: Derek Bristol
NSS #: 34941
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Colorado Grotto
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby YuccaPatrol » Aug 27, 2011 3:24 pm

We've strayed a bit off topic now that this thread is discussing pros and cons o the sten light, but I did want to point out that the Sten is not the only upgradable/rebuildable/adaptable caving headlamp. The original single LED Little Monkey headlamp could be upgraded to the dual LED Hurricane version and several variations were available including the choice of LED tint (cool or neutral). I, myself, had my Little Monkey upgraded to a Hurricane. Considering how the manufacturer seems to like offering a wide range of possible configurations with his custom Petzl Duo upgrade modules, It's a pretty sure bet that the upcoming Rude Nora lamp is designed to have more than one possible configuration and could be upgraded/altered/modified at a later time after purchase.
User avatar
YuccaPatrol
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 399
Joined: Oct 12, 2006 7:54 am
Name: Andrew Mobley
NSS #: 58447
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Huntsville Grotto
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby Cody JW » Aug 27, 2011 4:18 pm

YuccaPatrol wrote:We've strayed a bit off topic now that this thread is discussing pros and cons o the sten light, but I did want to point out that the Sten is not the only upgradable/rebuildable/adaptable caving headlamp. The original single LED Little Monkey headlamp could be upgraded to the dual LED Hurricane version and several variations were available including the choice of LED tint (cool or neutral). I, myself, had my Little Monkey upgraded to a Hurricane. Considering how the manufacturer seems to like offering a wide range of possible configurations with his custom Petzl Duo upgrade modules, It's a pretty sure bet that the upcoming Rude Nora lamp is designed to have more than one possible configuration and could be upgraded/altered/modified at a later time after purchase.
I agree with Yucca, From what what I remember the Hurricane was at a similar price as The Sten but was had a much higher lumen output on max than the The Sten. Bif is a caver and knows what type of light patterns cavers want. I am VERY impressed with the spread of light with the CD1003 insert. I too cannot wait for the Rude Nora.
It only takes one person to surrender a dog to a kill shelter ,but it takes many to rescue it.
User avatar
Cody JW
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 905
Joined: Oct 24, 2007 10:16 am
Location: Indianapolis In. USA
Name: Jeff Cody
NSS #: 23961
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby Jon » Aug 28, 2011 11:03 pm

Warning.......still :off topic:
On the Sten upgrade, I was talking Factory. For a price Sten will upgrade from a 7 to a Prem 7. That's what I ment. Maybe someday they will do a factory upgrade with better LED's but I 'd want the old stuff back incase... Anyway I like the color, the adaptability and it's paid for nothing against the others I'm more into spill and such. But I do get ribbed from time to time when a Fenix person gets asked to light that up way over there. Actually I only got involved in this because I saw the word "Spark" and figured it had to do with lighting a REAL cave light.....:carbide: :big grin:
User avatar
Jon
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 241
Joined: May 22, 2010 11:29 pm
NSS #: 60164
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Cochise County Cavers
  

Re: Fenix hp-11 or Spark st-6 500cw

Postby tncaver » Aug 29, 2011 7:48 am

Jon wrote:Warning.......still :off topic:
But I do get ribbed from time to time when a Fenix person gets asked to light that up way over there.


Funny, a sten person told me I was blinding him with my Fenix HP11 this weekend. It was on the second from lowest setting with the diffuser in
place. Even on that setting with the diffuser flipped up, it shines a powerful spot way ahead and has two more higher brightness levels on top of
that. :big grin:
tncaver
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2640
Joined: May 17, 2007 7:03 pm
  

PreviousNext

Return to Equipment Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron