Radioactivity and Radon Studies in Caves

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Radioactivity and Radon Studies in Caves

Postby Evan G » Mar 28, 2006 5:59 pm

I was wondering if anyone else is doing any knid of Radon study in caves in the States. The Members of the hodagrag and BLM are doing a continued study which has been going for about 14 years. Just seeing if there is anyone that has been dealing with this subject.

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Postby bigalpha » Mar 28, 2006 6:12 pm

Not me but I am interested in what kind of results you guys have gotten
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Postby troutboy » Mar 29, 2006 9:59 am

The National Park Service has been monitoring radon levels in Mammoth Cave since the mid-1970s.

Contact person at the park is (was ?) Bobby Carson.

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Postby Wayne Harrison » Mar 29, 2006 10:35 am

Also see this previous forum discussion that included radon dangers:

http://www.caves.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... ight=radon
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Postby hewhocaves » Mar 29, 2006 11:05 am

the central jersey grotto did a study like that in a jersey cave several years ago. it came out that you would have to spend something like two months in a cave over the course of a year to get a statistical amount. we joked that this really endangered some people who liked the cave a lot, mostly because you could visit the whole thing in under an hour.

i don't have the actual results anymore, but i could probably dig them up.

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Postby Evan G » Mar 29, 2006 11:32 am

That would be wonderful if you could dig that up. We have several caves here in Wyoming that you are only allowed 138 hours of exposer over a year or you get your full dose of radiation for the year. Some are much hotter than that and only allow ten hours of exposer. We are doing studies on the effects on cavers, marco & mirco bio, the Geology and much more. I would like to see if other cavers have other data on other caves. It would be interesting to compile this data and take an indepth look at it.
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Postby Evan G » Mar 29, 2006 2:44 pm

Because of new technology out the standard Radon Tests of Charcoal Canister & Alpha Tract Particle canister where not used because of many concerns:

I talk with four Nuclear Physicists and they all agreed that these types of tests are not designed for readings over 30 PCi/L. These are some of their concerns:

Charcoal Canister: Because the trapping agent is activated charcoal in a cave environment with the humidity being 100% the charcoal would also absorb a greater amount of H2O thus causing the PCi/L to be shown as a lower reading than actual amount (Dilution).

Alpha Track Particle Canister: Because of the high concentration of Radon gas & alpha emitter particles it is best to use this as a short term test thus 48hrs to at most one month. (Side note: one test we did with an Alpha Particle canister it was placed within Titan Mine which is within one mile of WY largest cave and a half mile from another cave. The canister was left for 24 hours to replicate a test that was done 10 years previously. To see if the results would be the same; the bug was pulled out and sent in to the lab. The lab called me and the physicists was furious saying that I was playing a game and whole sort of other things. Once I convinced him that the test was for real, what I was doing, and the reasons why. He finally gave me the results; he felt that it was his best extrapolation and he recalibrated his machines twice. The old reading from J. Buchanan test was 1,250,000. PCi/L the new one was 1,125,000. PCi/L. He then told me that the Alpha Track Particle Canister is too general of a test to use under high radon conditions which is anything above 30PCi/L. He told me of some new technology out that would be better suited to these studies.)

From J Buchanan report of 1989:

Image

New Technology:

E-PERM(R) System is a passive integrating detector system for the measurement of radon/thoron concentrations in air. It consists of a charged Teflon disk(electret), open faced ionization chamber, and electret voltage reader and data logger. When the electret is screwed into the chamber, an electrostatic field is established and a passive ionization chamber is formed. The chamber is deployed directly in the area to be measured. Radon gas diffuses passively into the chamber and the alpha particles emitted from the decay of radon ionize the air molecules; the ions are attracted to the charged surface of the electret, and the electret charge originally present gets reduced. The electret charge is measured before and after the exposure with a portable electret voltage reader, and the rate of change of the charge(change divided by the time of exposure) is proportional to the concentration of radon in the area.
Another is the Gamma scout: http://www.gammascout.com/

New studies on Little Mt (Phase 1):

Image

Image

The reading with the final volts as being near 0 is that the E-perm is “Cookedâ€
Last edited by Evan G on Mar 29, 2006 3:20 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Caverdale » Mar 29, 2006 3:00 pm

About 10-15 years ago someone from the state of Washington monitored radon in several caves in the western US. I believe it was John Buchanan in Cheney but I could be mistaken. He is in the NSS members manual. You might contact him and see what he has to say.

It has been my impression for years that most, if not all, tourist caves managed by the National Park Service regularly monitor radon in those caves. Ron Kerbo should know.
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Postby Evan G » Mar 29, 2006 3:31 pm

J. Buchanan report has become a helpful basis to build on for Horsethief-Bighorn system study and little mountain caves. I was around when he was doing his studies on the little mountain cave systems. The BLM (managing Horse thief cave) has found it in thier interest to continue these studies. But the other half of Horsethief-Bighorn system, Bighorn Cave (managed by the Park Service)doesn't seem interested in doing to much on the radon study. I have talk to the Park Service in Lovell and that is as far has I have been able to get. Mainly just being put in the run around.

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Radon Studies In Tennessee Caves

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Apr 6, 2006 12:25 pm

By all means, you need to get in touch with Nick Fielder here in Tennessee. He has been put in charge of testing caves for Radon by the State of Tennessee.

His email address is: Nick.Fielder@state.tn.us

And his Telephone Number is: (615) 741-1588

Good luck !
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Postby Evan G » Apr 6, 2006 1:37 pm

Larry,

Thank You very much! I will be in touch the him!

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Postby steelwool » Apr 9, 2006 9:41 pm

Radon comes from the decomposition of uranium. Uranium is generally found in igneous rocks and soils that derived from igneous rocks. Since most caves are in limestone which is a sedimentary rock, I would suspect that radon levels are fairly low. Unless the limestone is near a body of igneous rock. Your odds of breaking yourself from falling in a cave is much higher than get a significant dose of radon gas from a cave.
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Postby Evan G » Apr 9, 2006 11:47 pm

Well they are not low here! Walk into titan uranium mine which is in limestone and a mile from the biggest cave in Wyoming at 14.6 miles long. It was abondon in the 80's (Titan mine) and has a PCI/L rating of 1,250,000.00. So if you spend 30 mins in it, forget about have normal children. We have had Giger counters gone off scale. The U-238 is in the mud separating the layers of limestone and occurs in the cave too. But since the the cave is large enough to breath we get lower readings and we have found it in cave depoists.


Your odds of breaking yourself from falling in a cave is much higher than get a significant dose of radon gas from a cave.


I'm sorry that would be true in most caves but in Holey Sheep cave which is at 10,000 PCI/L your full dose is 10 hours. Horsethief Cave is 137 hours in a year total. I have had my full dose twice.

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Postby Teresa » Apr 10, 2006 12:06 pm

steelwool wrote:Radon comes from the decomposition of uranium. Uranium is generally found in igneous rocks and soils that derived from igneous rocks. Since most caves are in limestone which is a sedimentary rock, I would suspect that radon levels are fairly low.


Nope. We haven't got uranium worth squat in Missouri, but our caves have some significant radon levels--even thousands of feet of rock above the igneousrock. So do some basements-- such tests are locally required before buying a new home in some areas.
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