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I dont know what I feel after reading that. I do know it was a very thought provoking article. Thanks for the post.

He provoked me into thinking he is a bum

boogercaver71 wrote:He provoked me into thinking he is a bum

Oh be nice now. Could you imagine going caving somewhere and rounding the corner and seeing someone like that. Wonder if its ever happened.

I gotta tell about a guy I met a couple years ago.

This man went through a nasty divorce. He got the half of their property with no house and nothing on it. As he sat on the side of a hill, pondering what to do, he noticed a bit of cool air coming out of the ground beside him. It got his undivided attention and he started to dig. He continued to dig every day following the air and a small bit of void. being a senior citizen on a fixed income, he managed to feed himself and planted a garden on the property below the developing cave. He has been living in his cave for several years now and has about 300ft with 3 entrances. He also keeps about an acre garden and is in pretty good shape at 70 years of age.

Fascinating article ... and the guy makes sense, but oh how a hot shower can feel sooo good.

Mudduck wrote:

boogercaver71 wrote:He provoked me into thinking he is a bum

Oh be nice now. Could you imagine going caving somewhere and rounding the corner and seeing someone like that. Wonder if its ever happened.

It happened to me, well, sort of... This spring I was leading a trip to a few caves around an HNF campground. As we started a hike to one of the more remote caves I noticed a very scrufty looking fellow staring down at us from the vicinity of what was to be our second cave. When we finally arrived at this cave we discovered a tent and a very large tarp completely covering the near vertical entrance.

With visions of meth labs in our heads we notified an HNF employee who was coincidently there to conduct a public usage survey. He told us he wasn't an officer and had no authority but would talk to him. A short time later the employee reported to us the fellow claimed he had been camping [living] there for about 3 weeks while mushroom hunting but had only a couple small dried up shrooms to show for his endeavor. The employee evicted him without incident.

I now regret not having waited for the fellow to leave and inspect the cave but by then we were changed and ready to head for home. The HNF employee assured us he had the guys license plate number and an officer would be checking out the cave asap. To make an odd sitiuation even odder...the fellow was driving a late model Audi TT. The car certainly didn't fit the driver!

Grandpa Caver wrote:To make an odd sitiuation even odder...the fellow was driving a late model Audi TT. The car certainly didn't fit the driver!

Never judge a book by its cover!

"They" say some of those people peddling for change on the side of the road actually make quite a pretty penny sometimes. Don't know if there's truth to that, but I've heard the rumor a few times.

whats the matter about sombody living in a cave and why would you call the athorities on them,to be vindictive or you just dont agree with it or just becuase he ruined your day caving,did you even talk to him first.atleast he did not break into sombodies empty home was he hurting anyone.its a good thing ancient man did not have people that would tell them they could not live there,how would they have survived,and we would not have all that cool cave art to check out

thunderson5 wrote:whats the matter about sombody living in a cave and why would you call the athorities on them,to be vindictive or you just dont agree with it or just becuase he ruined your day caving,did you even talk to him first.atleast he did not break into sombodies empty home was he hurting anyone.its a good thing ancient man did not have people that would tell them they could not live there,how would they have survived,and we would not have all that cool cave art to check out

We did not exactly "call the authorities" on him.We simply made them aware of his presence. He had effectively blocked the entrance, not only to cavers but also to the number of bats that roost in the cave. To my knowledge he was breaking no laws other than blocking the entrance and no charges were brought against him. Most of our grotto members have recently attended a meth lab awareness training program and were advised to NEVER attempt contact with anyone who appeared suspicious, as he certainly did!

I admit it is a sad situation when trust and goodwill take a back seat to fear and suspicion but such is the world we live in.

Brian

Thunderson,

there are lots of reasons why living in a cave on public land is bad. First, you are disturbing the native inhabitants from bats to bugs to fungi and probably degrading the natural conditions far more than transient visitors would. Second you are monopolizing a public resource or at least diminishing the experiance of others wanting to visit. Third, anyone living in a cave on public land is worthy of suspicion outright. Why live there instead of a free designated camping area? Most of the reasons involve legal or psychological issues or both. I've spent a weekend camping near a cave entrance, but most caves here in the midwest are actually not very livable places anyway.

Actually, national forests, state parks and forests, etc., have time limits on camping in order to prevent permanent squatters. Usually it is 7 or 14 days, after which you must vacate for 24 hours before reoccupying a site. While it is true many folks living this way are down on their luck, if a person moved in and set up a permanent camp, and no one evicted them, they could legally claim the property under adverse possession laws in many states. This would take occupying a site for years; but some people have tried.

wyandottecaver wrote:Why live there instead of a free designated camping area? Most of the reasons involve legal or psychological issues or both.

I'm sure this guy prefers places that are not developed by man and so chooses not to camp/live at designated camping areas. At the time of the article, he was staying near Moab, Utah so he was probably in a sandstone shelter or possibly a conglomerate cave. He's moved on now. I think he's been in Taos lately, staying with friends. (I read his blog) I think this guy has it made. I'm sure a lot of others are jealous that they can't give up their money-dependent lives and go live for free. I know a lot of people like him. He talks about the Rainbow Family so he has some hippie background.

Teresa wrote: if a person moved in and set up a permanent camp, and no one evicted them, they could legally claim the property under adverse possession laws in many states. This would take occupying a site for years; but some people have tried.

I've heard of this but is it still true? I found this from the Colorado BLM site:

There is no free public land. Americans have always had to pay in cash, in military service, or in the case of homesteads, by living on and developing the land before they received title. Congress abolished homesteading in 1976 with passage of the Federal Land Policy and Management Act, which made it a national policy to retain most public lands in federal ownership. Today, BLM manages these public lands for all Americans, who enjoy numerous economic benefits from these lands, including revenue from mineral leasing, livestock grazing, forest products, rights of way, as well as recreational opportunities such as camping, hiking, hunting, and fishing.

http://www.blm.gov/co/st/en/BLM_Informa ... _land.html

As Teresa states adverse possession laws vary from state to state and each situation normally is only resolved in court. Being able to cite similar precedents is critical to a successful claim.