Boy killed by bear near Timpanogos Cave

Post cave-related articles published in the mainstream media here. Please observe copyrights, posting only short excerpts with link to full article.

Moderator: Moderators

Postby Wayne Harrison » Jun 20, 2007 6:35 pm

Tlaloc, I said the ranger told me the scent, among others, attracted bears. Sorry, when it comes to advice for what to do in the park backcountry, I'll go with that of a park ranger who works there over an anonymous person on the Internet calling it B.S. I figure better safe than sorry.

In any case, here's the Web page with documented pros and cons on the argument and that lists actual studies on the subject. It also has a list of precautions menstruating women should take in the backcountry:

http://www.nps.gov/yell/naturescience/bears_women.htm

The U.S. Forest Service says flatly, "Menstrual odors have been shown to attract bears":

http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/bighorn/recreation/bears/

Google has a whole host of links on the subject, if you want more information and would like to form your own opinion:

http://tinyurl.com/yvbmjm

Tlaloc, I couldn't find anything factual one way or the other on your statement about Native American women having no problem with bears for thousands of years. If true, the knowledge would have to be passed on from generation to generation and thousands of years covers a lot of generations. Personally, knowing there were many more bears around before the white man came, I would think bears would have been a big problem for Native Americans. But that's just my hunch. I'm certainly not stating it as fact.
User avatar
Wayne Harrison
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2382
Joined: Aug 30, 2005 5:29 pm
Location: Pine, Colorado
NSS #: 18689 FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: unaffiliated
  

Postby Squirrel Girl » Jun 20, 2007 7:27 pm

So Wayne, did you *read* the NPS page? It stated:

Grizzly Bears: Herrero (1985) analyzed the circumstances of hundreds of grizzly bear attacks on humans, including the attacks on the two women in GNP, and concluded that there was no evidence linking menstruation to any of the attacks.

Black Bears: Menstrual odors were essentially ignored by black bears of all sex and age classes.

Polar Bears: four captive polar bears elicited a strong behavioral response only to seal scents and menstrual odors (used tampons). Cushing (1983) also reported that free-ranging polar bears detected and consumed food scent samples and used tampons

OK, so if I'm ever in polar bear habitat (if they don't go extinct from global warming), I'll be sure to not keep my used tampons in my tent with me.
:waving:
Barbara Anne am Ende

"Weird people are my people."
User avatar
Squirrel Girl
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 5:34 am
Location: Albuquerque, NM
NSS #: 15789
  

Postby Tlaloc » Jun 20, 2007 7:33 pm

According to the NPS site you linked to:

"Grizzly Bears

Herrero (1985) analyzed the circumstances of hundreds of grizzly bear attacks on humans, including the attacks on the two women in GNP, and concluded that there was no evidence linking menstruation to any of the attacks. The responses of grizzly bears to menstrual odors has not been studied experimentally.

Black Bears

Rogers et al. (1991) recorded the responses of 26 free-ranging black bears (Ursus americanus) to used tampons from 26 women and the responses of 20 free ranging black bears to four menstruating women at different days of their flow. Menstrual odors were essentially ignored by black bears of all sex and age classes. In an extensive review of black bear attacks across North America, no instances of black bears attacking or being attracted to menstruating women was found (Cramond 1981, Herrero 1985, Rogers et al. 1991)."

So the NPS's own site seems to confirm that the rangers told you an apocryphal story. The two books I cited are the definitive references on this subject and are worth reading especially Craighead & Craighead. Just because somebody works for the NPS as a ranger in no way makes him an authority on this or anything else. Read the Craighead book and then tell me if you believe what the NPS tells you.

When it comes to grizzly bears people strongly prefer not to be confused with the truth but rather to be phobic and delusional and believe myths about these animals which portray them to be like the monsters in a horror movie - which they are not.
User avatar
Tlaloc
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Sep 30, 2005 9:42 am
Location: Tlalocan
  

Postby Wayne Harrison » Jun 20, 2007 7:40 pm

Yes, I did and I now know more than I ever wanted or needed. It also said, "Although there is no evidence that grizzly and black bears are overly attracted to menstrual odors more than any other odor, certain precautions should be taken to reduce the risks of attack."

Mostly, I just wanted some validation that would make me feel better about being in close quarters with my girlfriend, backpacking for six days and abstaining from :kiss: . It was very difficult for me and I'd hate to think I did it for nothing. Of course I was much younger then. It would be much easier now. :oops:

It kind of reminds me of that often-told story about the old man who found a talking frog and the frog said, "Kiss me and I'll turn into a beautiful princess."

When the old man put the frog in his pocket, the frog yelled, "Hey, didn't you hear me? Kiss me and I'll turn into a beautiful princess!"

And the old man replied, "At my age I'd rather have a talking frog."
User avatar
Wayne Harrison
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2382
Joined: Aug 30, 2005 5:29 pm
Location: Pine, Colorado
NSS #: 18689 FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: unaffiliated
  

Postby Squirrel Girl » Jun 20, 2007 7:50 pm

Tlaloc wrote:When it comes to grizzly bears people strongly prefer not to be confused with the truth but rather to be phobic and delusional and believe myths about these animals which portray them to be like the monsters in a horror movie - which they are not.
Well, I took your "side" in that I didn't think it sounded very rational that menstrating women should be particularly fearful of bears.

But I am not quite willing to be quite so blase regarding grizzlies. No, they're not horror movie monsters, but they're not teddy bears either. I didn't see the movie, but I heard a couple interviews with the German guy who made the documentary of the whacko who went to live with the grizzlies. Then one killed him. Duh. It was all caught on tape. They're wild dangerous animals.

So, I guess I'm urging rationality. Don't turn them into human (woman) stalkers. But don't turn 'em into teddies, either.
Barbara Anne am Ende

"Weird people are my people."
User avatar
Squirrel Girl
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 5:34 am
Location: Albuquerque, NM
NSS #: 15789
  

Postby Tlaloc » Jun 20, 2007 9:40 pm

Squirrel Girl wrote:Well, I took your "side"...
There is no reason to put the word side in quotes.

Squirrel Girl wrote:I didn't see the movie, but...
You should see it. It's excellent. Twisted and dark, but really good. That guy was psychotic. He was going to kill himself but decided to go save the bears instead. The bears didn't need to be saved because they are protected in Katmai Park. He believed that he could communicate with them telepathically. Obviously he was self destructive, etc., etc. He was also a moron. He did everything he could to get killed but it still took the bears years to finally get around to killing him. It proves my point. The bears weren't in a big hurry to eat anybody. They had better things to do like eat salmon.
User avatar
Tlaloc
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Sep 30, 2005 9:42 am
Location: Tlalocan
  

Postby Ralph E. Powers » Jun 20, 2007 10:19 pm

Tlaloc wrote:
Squirrel Girl wrote:I didn't see the movie, but...
You should see it. It's excellent. Twisted and dark, but really good. That guy was psychotic. He was going to kill himself but decided to go save the bears instead. The bears didn't need to be saved because they are protected in Katmai Park. He believed that he could communicate with them telepathically. Obviously he was self destructive, etc., etc. He was also a moron. He did everything he could to get killed but it still took the bears years to finally get around to killing him. It proves my point. The bears weren't in a big hurry to eat anybody. They had better things to do like eat salmon.

I saw that too... kinda funny in some places like his rant/rage against the NPS/NFS, and his feeling a bond when he touched the fresh poop. Oh man. Sad that he dragged some girl up there and she got killed along with him. This was a guy definitely asking for it. He got great footage of bears to be sure but thinking that they wouldn't harm him because he means them no harm was just plain stupid. Bears in that area are apex predators and everything else is just fair game... him included.
Without the possibility of death, adventure is not possible. ~ Reinhold Messner


http://ralph.rigidtech.com/albums.php
User avatar
Ralph E. Powers
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2101
Joined: Sep 10, 2005 5:48 pm
Location: Chattanooga, TN
NSS #: 37616
  

Postby Wayne Harrison » Jun 20, 2007 10:33 pm

Somewhere along here a big jump was made from my mentioning that the ranger said certain scents attract bears to bears portrayed as monsters. I didn't take his advice to convey that at all. It was simply, be bear aware and don't take chances. That's all. Since we were a day's hike or more away from help, I heeded the advice. Our biggest problem was running into buffalo, not bears, while on our extended trip. One had just gored a tourist who didn't heed the ranger's advice not to get too close just before we arrived.

We did see black bears while in the backcountry -- but they didn't bother us -- and I live in bear habitat, where they roam our housing development at certain times of the year, so I'm not unfamiliar with them.
User avatar
Wayne Harrison
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2382
Joined: Aug 30, 2005 5:29 pm
Location: Pine, Colorado
NSS #: 18689 FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: unaffiliated
  

Postby Squirrel Girl » Jun 21, 2007 3:00 am

Tlaloc wrote:
Squirrel Girl wrote:Well, I took your "side"...
There is no reason to put the word side in quotes.
Yes there is. We're all just having a friendly chat here in Cavechat. And there shouldn't be sides to be taken as in a feud. And by turning a friendly chat into that it makes something friendly into something less friendly. Ergo I put "side" in quotes to call out that it's not really a side but a <giant exaggerated quote motion> "side" here.

Really what I mean is I found the logic behind the argument that menstrating women aren't giant bear attactors more plausible than Wayne's argument that the guvment says they are. I'm no guvment-basher either. I *like* our guvment in general (politicians aside).

But I didn't take your argument to extreme. I still have a healthy respect for bears, especially grizzlies. Maybe they won't KILL or EAT me, but they sure my HURT me. I still agree they're not generally rampagers or monsters, but they're powerful, and potentially dangerous wild animals. Heck, a racoon can be dangerous. I don't mess with them either. Sharp claws and teeth. But they're a lot smaller and my danger-respect is a bit diminished regarding them.
Barbara Anne am Ende

"Weird people are my people."
User avatar
Squirrel Girl
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 5:34 am
Location: Albuquerque, NM
NSS #: 15789
  

Georgia: Ex-Marine kills bear with a log

Postby Wayne Harrison » Jun 21, 2007 10:16 am

Ex-Marine Kills Bear With Log
from WSBTV.com

HELEN - An ex-Marine used a whole lot of bravery and a little bit of luck in a harrowing encounter with a black bear.

Norcross resident Christ Everhart took his three boys on their first camping trip to the Chattahoochee National Forest last weekend. There, a 300 pound bear set her sights on their cooler. But when Chris’ son distracted the wild animal, the bear dropped the cooler and headed for the 6-year-old boy.

“He held it right here then he threw it and it went rolling and struck the bear right there,” said Jake Everhart.

Eleven-year-old Jake described how his dad kept a 300 pound black bear away from his youngest brother, Logan.

Chris Everhart and his sons were packing up after dinner when they got the unexpected guest.

The bear sunk her teeth into their cooler and was headed to the woods. Then 6-year-old Logan took action.

“I got a shovel and I tried to scare it,” said Logan.

But Logan was the one who ended up getting scared and getting the bear’s attention. The bear dropped the cooler and headed towards Logan, growling.

“When Logan was being chased by the bear, I threw about five rocks at the bear to keep him away,” said Kyle Everhart.

The boys’ dad, an ex-Marine, knew he had to do something. So he grabbed the closes thing he could find – a log.

“(I) threw it at it and it happened to hit the bear in the head and I thought it just knocked it out but it actually ended up killing the bear,” said Chris.

Chris’ family will never forget the camping trip. Chris even ended up being cited for not properly storing his food, but that’s not what he feels bad about.

“I feel bad about killing the bear,” said Chris.

Officials from the Department of Natural Resources said there has never been a bear attack in Georgia. But they said there is no way to predict how wild animals will behave. The best advice is to keep food and garbage away from the reach of bears.
User avatar
Wayne Harrison
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2382
Joined: Aug 30, 2005 5:29 pm
Location: Pine, Colorado
NSS #: 18689 FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: unaffiliated
  

Postby George Dasher » Jun 21, 2007 10:47 am

"Night of the Grizzlies" is an excellent book; I would highly recommend it.

One of the girls killed was camping in a campground near a location where chateau employees had been putting out garbage to attract the bears to entertain the tourists. People came to that chateau to see the bears. Sorta like dive operators baiting sharks for the divers...

Obviously the employees shouldn't have been doing that, and maybe the Park Service should have closed the campground. The bear that killed the girl was one that came in late at night and was one no one knew about. I think it (and the other bear) was a sow.

The boyfriend was also VERY badly mauled. He should have died, but there was three or four surgeons staying at the chateau. One took the head injuries, another the chest, and a third the legs. There may have been a fourth surgeon too. The Park Service flew in medical supplies and rifles, and the surgeons did their surgery in the kitchen. No one could find the IV needles, but one of the surgeon's wives was an ER nurse, and she made everyone go back through what had been sent on the theory the IV needles would have not been forgotten. They found them.

The other girl was killed a completely seperate location, and by a malnourished bear that had been causing problems all summer. It should have been killed earlier by the Park Service. The bear had been hanging around the campsite and scaring the girl's group, and the girl had been cuddling the group's dog--which they were not supposed to have, as bears do not like dogs and it is against Park rules. Anyway, the bear just suddenly came into the camping area and took her.

That group had to walk someone out to tell the rangers, and the ranger they talked to called on his radio to report a "10-something or other." The Park Service kept telling him to shut up, that they knew all about it. He finally asked: "How? The kid just walked in from the lake just now?"

The Park Service said: "Lake? What do you mean 'lake'?" They had thought the ranger was trying to report the first attack.

As I said, that is a book that is VERY much worth reading. Most libraries have it. It would make a good audio book.
User avatar
George Dasher
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 693
Joined: Sep 22, 2005 2:00 pm
Location: West Virginia
NSS #: 16643
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Charleston Grotto
  

Postby Wayne Harrison » Jun 22, 2007 10:25 am

In a related story...

DOW destroys bear that was fed, petted by people

Dennis Webb
Glenwood Springs, CO Colorado
June 22, 2007

GLENWOOD SPRINGS, Colo. — State wildlife officials shot and killed a bear Thursday night after receiving reports that people had been feeding and petting it this week.

Sonia Marzec, district wildlife manager for the Colorado Division of Wildlife, said the agency wanted to prevent a repeat of what occurred earlier this week when a bear dragged a boy from his tent in Utah and killed him.

"After the Utah thing, I don't want to have any issues like that," she said.

Marzec said the DOW had received reports about people feeding and petting a bear at Ami's Acres Campgrounds in West Glenwood. The reports were from not just witnesses but the participants themselves.

She said area wildlife manager Perry Will approached the bear Wednesday and it didn't walk off, adding to concerns that it was too habituated to humans.

DOW officers staked out Ami's Acres Thursday night to wait for the bear's return, and tried to tranquilize it with the intent of then destroying it. The 3- to 4-year-old female ran over a hill behind the campground and officers were able to shoot it.

DOW officials have become increasingly frustrated by people in West Glenwood failing to secure their trash from bears and in some cases reportedly even intentionally feeding them, which is illegal.

Marzec said one concern with the bear at Ami's Acres was that it might have become bolder and more aggressive with other people after those who had rewarded its presence by feeding it had gone.

Normally, problem bears are tagged and relocated, and put down only if they return to cause more problems, under the DOW's two-strike bear policy. Marzec said the Ami's Acres bear didn't have any strikes against it, but she wasn't willing to take a chance.

"The worst part of my job is to have to kill a bear but I would much rather have to kill a bear than have it injure someone," she said.

She said the operators of Ami's Acres have been cooperating with authorities by trying to secure trash. They have bear-proof trash bins with cables to lock down the tops, but the bear still was getting past the plastic lids.

"The operators are definitely on board with trying to help us out," she said.

Marzec also is dealing with a bear that has been getting into trash at Glenwood Canyon Resort in No Name*. That one will be relocated if it is caught, she said. She said a mother bear with cubs in West Glenwood continues to be spotted but isn't behaving in a way that warrants destroying it at this point.

Meanwhile, Marzec and local authorities are stepping up their focus on the human root of the problem, after weeks of trying to haze bears away from homes and businesses and back into the hills.

"The bear/trash situation is not going away. ... Unfortunately the bears are not learning because the people are not learning," she said.

As a result, Marzec has consulted with the District Attorney's Office and Glenwood Springs police and they have agreed to pursue ticketing of people who refuse to secure trash.

"We are all on the same page at this point," she said.

DOW volunteers will deliver letters to residents in problem areas in West Glenwood and to restaurants, lodges and gas stations all over town, putting them on notice about the ticketing policy. Marzec said the letters are in both English and Spanish.

People who create trash problems would receive a warning, and then a ticket if they don't change their ways. Those living in city limits would be cited under a Glenwood Springs ordinance, and others would be cited under a DOW regulation.

* the anticipated campground of the proposed 2011 NSS Convention in Colorado

http://www.postindependent.com/article/ ... /106220048
User avatar
Wayne Harrison
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2382
Joined: Aug 30, 2005 5:29 pm
Location: Pine, Colorado
NSS #: 18689 FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: unaffiliated
  

Postby Ralph E. Powers » Jun 22, 2007 12:27 pm

Cute and cuddly they may be but never ever to be trusted completely. There are several videos of news reporters sitting next to a (tame??) bear and suddenly the animal just attacks them.
With an apex predator like the bear (any species) you leave nothing to chance and nothing underestimated. They're good for seeing at a distance (with binoculars) and in the zoo but other than that.
Bears do what bears do. Going into their habitats and calling it our own (campgrounds) is foolhardy at best.
Without the possibility of death, adventure is not possible. ~ Reinhold Messner


http://ralph.rigidtech.com/albums.php
User avatar
Ralph E. Powers
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2101
Joined: Sep 10, 2005 5:48 pm
Location: Chattanooga, TN
NSS #: 37616
  

Postby George Dasher » Jun 22, 2007 1:47 pm

Do you know what it means when a bear has a cold nose?






It means he is waaaay too close!
User avatar
George Dasher
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 693
Joined: Sep 22, 2005 2:00 pm
Location: West Virginia
NSS #: 16643
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Charleston Grotto
  

Previous

Return to Caves, Caving In The News Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users