1965 cave accident victim's remains to be retrieved

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Postby lyonz » Aug 22, 2006 3:18 pm

This is a longshot but here goes - anybody have any info. on William Wells or John Sanders? They were both part of the National Capital Grotto Rescue Team that was flown to Dolgeville to attempt a rescue in '65. They are the last 2 that I have not located yet. They were both from the VA./DC area and were 19 and 24 respectively in '65. I would love to interview them for my documentary or at the very least get their thoughts on the matter. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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Postby lyonz » Sep 30, 2006 3:42 pm

just an update. I'm working on the editing and still have a few more interviews and shots to get but all is moving forward. I hope to have things done for next years NSS convention in IN.

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Jim Mitchell presentation in Bellingham

Postby Ernie Coffman » Oct 3, 2006 10:27 pm

Christian, did you ever join the NSS? :hairpull:

Your presentation at the convention this year was really great, as was your "opponent's," which had to be one of the highlights of the convention, as far as I care. Both of you made some excellent background information for us, and I was totally blown away, that it was to such a small crowd. Of course, those that were there, enjoyed both presentations immensely, so...guess that's the way it goes. There were a lot of interesting choices at that particular time.

If you're going to make another presentation, I would hope that you share the latest findings and not drag out all of the other background info. Know that might be difficult, but I'm sure you can summarize a good part of it...and then get into the main concepts.

Good luck to both presenters and look forward to next year's convention, in Indiana. :banana:
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Postby lyonz » Oct 5, 2006 12:32 pm

Ernie ~
Thanks for the kind words regarding my presentation. I was glad to be able to present my findings to the caving community. As for the turnout - I thought it was pretty good. That room was almost full and was even changed at the last minute to accomodate more people. As for giving another presentation next year - No I will not be doing that as I don't feel the need to keep telling the story at each convention. I will only show the documentary when it is complete. So hopefully that will be for next years in IN. I feel that most people have either read about it here or at uscaversforum.com or in their local papers back in June when it was a hot story. I will keep all updated though as to the progress on the film. Thanks to all for the support.

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Postby lyonz » Oct 31, 2006 11:45 am

To those that attended the History Session at this years NSS Convention ~

There was an article that was available at the end, written by Jack H.Speece - does anybody have a copy of that? There is a "revised version" in the Sept. issue of Northeast Caver newsletter but I am only interested in the "original" version. If anybody has that could you contact me through here. Thanks.
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Postby underworldxplorer » Jan 17, 2007 11:57 am

I've enjoyed following this story. How is everything coming along with the documentary?
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Postby lyonz » Jan 18, 2007 11:36 am

underworldxplorer wrote:I've enjoyed following this story. How is everything coming along with the documentary?


Things are moving along. I am still filming interviews, having just returned from Arizona where I interviewed one of the members from the '65 rescue group. I also have an editor who has begun to put together all that was filmed already. There is still lots to do but my hope is to have the film completed by this summer. Happy New Year to all cavers!

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Postby lyonz » Jul 28, 2007 3:44 pm

Just an update - The past few days I have been in IN. at the 2007 NSS Convention and got a chance to meet with a number of people, including Ernst Kastning, who had first hand knowledge of Schroeders Pants Cave. He was one of the cavers that ventured back to the cave in 1970 to try and determine what happened. I also got the chance to talk with some in the cave rescue community who knew Bill Karras. But the highlight for me was having the Mitchell family attend the banquet. It was my first time meeting the father, who at 90 was in great spirits. Also attending were Bill and Pam Mitchell and Howard Gentry. Bill is the brother and Howard a cousin. This was Mr. Mitchell's first time at a convention and the last one Bill attended was over 42 years ago with his brother. I got a chance to chat with Jim ( the father) about that fateful week back in '65 and he shed some light on that time for me. Also having a few of the past recipients of the Mitchell award come over to the table to meet the family was special for all. The members of the Mitchell family gave a sizeable donation to make sure that the James Gentry Mitchell Memorial Award will continue for generations. It was a great ending for a great convention. Now it's back to LA to continue putting this all together. I'll keep you all posted.

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Postby mgmills » Jul 28, 2007 8:22 pm

Haven't read it yet since I just got home from convention but I had my August NSS News in the mailbox and there is an article about the cave and accident in there. I just scanned it briefly.
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Postby lyonz » Jul 29, 2007 1:14 pm

I would suggest reading that article with an open mind as it is written by one person and it is his take on it. For instance in one of the last chapters where it talks about one of Karras's guys, who was personally invited to the retrieval last summer, was overheard saying the cave only suffered a "partial collapse". The only reason he said that was because that's what I told him when I called him 2 months earlier. He believed for 41 years that the cave totally collapsed. He was stunned to say the least when I told him people had been going back into the cave over the years. Upon hearing that he immediately wanted to be a part of the recovery as he said it was unfinished business and he felt terrible. He told me had they gone back in after what they thought was the collapse, they could have gotten him out.
Although I commend Tim Downey for his efforts, it's not the gospel according to Luke. If one is going to write an article with the headline reading "What really happened", I would think more people who were intimately involved that week in '65, should be contacted for their side. I mean no disrespect to Tim Downey on this, so please don't construe it that way. I have my opinions based on my research and Tim has his.
Thanks.

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many thnaks

Postby JamesCrouch » Aug 3, 2007 1:18 pm

Thank you for your efforts in gathering this information. We can all benefit from history such as this...
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Postby lyonz » Aug 3, 2007 4:01 pm

You're welcome James. It has been my pleasure to gather the information I have and share it with you and the rest of the caving community.
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Schroeder's Pants Cave

Postby JEC » Nov 6, 2007 4:45 pm

Very interesting articles in the NSS News about Schroeder’s Pants Cave. I wonder if I am the only one who has noticed the inconsistencies in the “Eyewitness Accounts” from the Rescue Squad.

(1) In Mr. Bill Karras’s account (the leader of the rescue team) from the NSS News of April 1965 he states he lowered an electronic stethoscope down to Jim Mitchell to determine if he was alive.

(2) But in the “16 year old hard core caver with the necessary skills” Mr. Scott Thybony’s eyewitness account in the NSS News 10/2007 he states they lowered Mr. Karras down to the victim and checked him with a stethoscope.

(3) Now the eyewitness account of Mr. Doug Bradford as told to The Florida Times-Union July 3, 2006.And I quote from Mr. Bradford’s article.

“At the end of the passage, a rope had been lowered in a deep cavern. Water from melting snow was pouring into the cavern and over Mitchell’s body 15 feet below like a waterfall, Bradford said.

Bradford was lowered on another rope to Mitchell. But when he grabbed Mitchell’s ice-cold arm, Bradford said he knew the man was dead.

After checking for vital signs, Bradford and other rescue team members decided to lower Mitchell 60 feet to the floor of the cavern. Mitchell’s rope was cut while Bradford held his body and the two were lowered to the bottom.”

Mr. Bradford’s article can be found on Jackson.com at
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/s ... 8776.shtml

These are just the initial misconceptions that jumped out at me when I read the “Eyewitness Account”.
There are more and I may write again. It’s too bad that the “team” that was there cannot even get their “own stories” straight.

Remember folks that these are the “eyewitness accounts” that the “fictional movie/documentary” are being based on. There are too many inaccuracies in this article and Christians letter for me to let this go. After all, I was the first desecrater and saw first hand what the rescue team did “and” did not do. Also after me there were many NSS members and some people that Christian does not even know of who were on my third trip to the bottom of the pit. Perhaps Christian should talk to people who lived here when the accident happened and not rely on “ fictional eyewitness accounts”! Then maybe he would find out that Tim Downey’s account is much closer to the truth of what took place. Not that I am calling anyone a liar but I was in the cave the fall before the accident and the spring following the accident. I know what the weather was that week. Not some weather bureau 100 miles away! He should talk to people willing to tell the truth and not a different story every time they speak!

Thank you
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Re: Schroeder's Pants Cave

Postby NZcaver » Nov 6, 2007 5:14 pm

JEC wrote:(1) In Mr. Bill Karras’s account (the leader of the rescue team) from the NSS News of April 1965 he states he lowered an electronic stethoscope down to Jim Mitchell to determine if he was alive.

(2) But in the “16 year old hard core caver with the necessary skills” Mr. Scott Thybony’s eyewitness account in the NSS News 10/2007 he states they lowered Mr. Karras down to the victim and checked him with a stethoscope.

I'm certainly not qualified in any way to comment on the tragic Mitchell accident and ensuing rescue effort, nor am I "taking sides" here.

However, I couldn't help but notice that first quote from Mr Karras doesn't make sense. Generally an electronic stethoscope requires a competent person to apply it and make their assessment - in person. Just like any other stethoscope. I could be wrong, but I really don't think you can just lower a stethoscope down a drop and hope it magically attaches to the patient and picks up some vital signs.


PS Jim - that link you posted to the Doug Bradford story didn't work. I took the liberty of removing the dot from the end, and now it works.
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Postby lyonz » Nov 10, 2007 10:45 pm

With all due respect, I have reached out to JEC on two previous occasions this year and once earlier this week and have received no response. I am 100% willing to meet JEC and anybody else who feels they have something to contribute to this story. I will meet anytime, anyplace. There are no hidden agendas here and I am interested, and have been, in telling both sides of the story.

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