Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Post cave-related articles published in the mainstream media here. Please observe copyrights, posting only short excerpts with link to full article.

Moderator: Moderators

Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby Teresa » Sep 24, 2013 6:06 pm

Teresa
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1413
Joined: Dec 31, 2005 9:06 pm
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby boogercaver71 » Sep 24, 2013 7:25 pm

Not for the landowners and cavers of Perry County
User avatar
boogercaver71
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Aug 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: SW Missouri
NSS #: 19471
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby rjack » Sep 25, 2013 2:32 pm

boogercaver71 wrote:Not for the landowners and cavers of Perry County


I know!!
God forbid should they appreciate and cherish millions of years of evolution (or God's creation depending on your sensibilities) and do their best to preserve the biological heritage of their lands for their great grandchildren and beyond. Damn gubbermint should just let all the stormwater, erosion and hog shit go wild - like in the dust bowl, now those were the laissez faire days.
rjack
Occasional Poster
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Feb 11, 2010 11:35 am
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby Chads93GT » Sep 27, 2013 1:00 pm

Being a Perry County cave surveyor, I will take it being listed as an endangered species over critical habitat any day of the week and twice on thursdays. Maybe now that it has been listed the land owners wont be afraid of the unknown anymore and open their caves back up. AFterall, if they keep them closed and dont let anyone in to monitor, then the fish will be forever listed endangered and not dropped down a notch to threatened.
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby boogercaver71 » Sep 28, 2013 8:29 am

rjack wrote:
boogercaver71 wrote:Not for the landowners and cavers of Perry County


I know!!
God forbid should they appreciate and cherish millions of years of evolution (or God's creation depending on your sensibilities) and do their best to preserve the biological heritage of their lands for their great grandchildren and beyond. Damn gubbermint should just let all the stormwater, erosion and hog shit go wild - like in the dust bowl, now those were the laissez faire days.


I always default to private property rights
User avatar
boogercaver71
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Aug 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: SW Missouri
NSS #: 19471
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby Chads93GT » Sep 28, 2013 11:38 am

I do too, but when Farmer A, is poisoning the ground water of everyone downstream from his farm in a sinkhole plain, there are laws that trump that. You can't just throw whatever the hell you want in sinkholes, contaminating the ground water further down the line, just because it is your property. As a society we have evolved far above the "Do whatever the hell you want no matter what" mentality on your own property, and for a good reason.
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby Chads93GT » Sep 28, 2013 11:46 am

Image

Image

Image

Just a few examples of the area. But whatever, its my property, who cares about the gas, oil, brake fluid, antifreeze leaking out into the ground water that my neighbors downstream have their wells drilled into. 'MERICA! F**K YEAH!
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby Teresa » Sep 29, 2013 12:50 am

This is actually a most amazing story. No, not everyone is happy with the turn of events in Perry County of course, but the county commission, and Perryville city officials have been proactive in designing a community water quality plan that is good for people, industry, farmers, fish and caves. A local initiative (with a few outsiders helping) resulted in 14,000+ scrap tires being collected on August 17, out of sinkholes, surface dumps and streams, with more cleanups planned. The local fire and rescue community is sponsoring an NCRC level one training the beginning of November. The local newspaper has been behind this effort to clean up the groundwater in order to minimize outside regulations from being imposed on the community, as well as educate people about karst, and how septic fields and water wells interact. Because Berome Moore C ave is one that is easily accessible (gated, but walk in entrance) in the last two years, MMV has made sure that most of the local officials (and many local residents who have asked) have taken a trip into the cave to see what's at stake here.

There are bumps in the road, and rough spots where people don't understand each other, the fish, or the federal ruling or what it means. But people are still talking to each other, and that's the main thing. I commend everyone who is helping on this.
:banana:
Teresa
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1413
Joined: Dec 31, 2005 9:06 pm
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby boogercaver71 » Sep 29, 2013 10:50 pm

Chads93GT wrote:I do too, but when Farmer A, is poisoning the ground water of everyone downstream from his farm in a sinkhole plain, there are laws that trump that. You can't just throw whatever the hell you want in sinkholes, contaminating the ground water further down the line, just because it is your property. As a society we have evolved far above the "Do whatever the hell you want no matter what" mentality on your own property, and for a good reason.


That is why we have a court system. Both the State and individuals have the ability to sue.
User avatar
boogercaver71
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Aug 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: SW Missouri
NSS #: 19471
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby Chads93GT » Sep 30, 2013 9:02 pm

And I the mean time the water is poisoned for an unknown amount of time. Sorry but settlement money won't decontaminate ground water. I'd rather my kids not be subjected to poison unknowingly because of a landowner that thinks his property is an appropriate dump for chemicals and garbage. I you want you and yours to drink that waste then go ahead. Sometimes laws preventing douchebaggery are good. Y
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby GroundquestMSA » Sep 30, 2013 9:59 pm

Chads93GT wrote:Sometimes laws preventing douchebaggery are good.


I hate pollution and am as disgusted with sinkhole dumps as you are. But despite the reality of this nastiness, your assessment of the offenders seems unfair. Most farmers where I live have used any available sinkholes for dumps, not because they are bad peaople, but because they are poor and busy and the time and money required to haul the vast amounts of junk generated by household and farm operations away for proper disposal is significant. There is also, still, a lot of "innocence" in these habits. People are largely unconcerned about the issue, not because they don't care about their surroundings, but because they don't believe they are harming anything. They may be wrong about that, but they aren't wicked, and probably don't deserve ugly names.

The groundwater of Perry Co. is a bit famous for its filth though, right? In these cases, laws that can improve the quality of the water and preserve unique critters are surely appropriate, despite possible infringement upon the comfort of the landowner.
User avatar
GroundquestMSA
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1343
Joined: May 5, 2011 1:32 pm
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby boogercaver71 » Oct 1, 2013 5:47 pm

Chads93GT wrote:And I the mean time the water is poisoned for an unknown amount of time. Sorry but settlement money won't decontaminate ground water. I'd rather my kids not be subjected to poison unknowingly because of a landowner that thinks his property is an appropriate dump for chemicals and garbage. I you want you and yours to drink that waste then go ahead. Sometimes laws preventing douchebaggery are good. Y


I believe the reason of this thread was to announce adding the Sculpin to the long list of endangered species. In my mind, this will cause just another reason why landowners will be suspicious about letting cavers on their land or caves. Are you really saying farmers who use herbicides or pesticides on their farms are "douchbags"? That seems to be the real issue, not filling sinkholes with trash.
User avatar
boogercaver71
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Aug 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Location: SW Missouri
NSS #: 19471
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby GroundquestMSA » Oct 1, 2013 8:49 pm

boogercaver71 wrote:I believe the reason of this thread was to announce adding the Sculpin to the long list of endangered species. In my mind, this will cause just another reason why landowners will be suspicious about letting cavers on their land or caves.


That's true. Many landowners aren't going to educate themselves enough to make a reasonable judgement. A VA landowner recently denied me access because "someone from the state" told him there were "endangered White Nose Bats" in his cave.
User avatar
GroundquestMSA
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1343
Joined: May 5, 2011 1:32 pm
  

Re: Grotto Sculpin to be listed tomorrow. NSS mentioned

Postby Chads93GT » Oct 2, 2013 11:45 am

boogercaver71 wrote:
Chads93GT wrote:And I the mean time the water is poisoned for an unknown amount of time. Sorry but settlement money won't decontaminate ground water. I'd rather my kids not be subjected to poison unknowingly because of a landowner that thinks his property is an appropriate dump for chemicals and garbage. I you want you and yours to drink that waste then go ahead. Sometimes laws preventing douchebaggery are good. Y


I believe the reason of this thread was to announce adding the Sculpin to the long list of endangered species. In my mind, this will cause just another reason why landowners will be suspicious about letting cavers on their land or caves. Are you really saying farmers who use herbicides or pesticides on their farms are "douchbags"? That seems to be the real issue, not filling sinkholes with trash.


We have already had problems getting into caves in the region, the sculpin issue has just compounded that. WNS and endangered bats in the county have also hindered.

Now, was I not clear about what I considered douchebag behavior? I could have swore I specifically said dumping oil, gas, antifreeze, chemicals, garbage.......... I don't recall saying anything about the use of pesticides or herbicides on the land. Your assessment of the real issue is completely wrong. I blatantly said what I meant, and meant what I said. Do not put words in my mouth.

The laws effecting this area in the same that effect springfield missouri, where the blind ozark cave fish lives.
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2293
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  


Return to Caves, Caving In The News Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users