Not welcome at this cave, anymore

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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby Chads93GT » Mar 2, 2013 9:12 pm

the sculpin are all over the place in his cave, when the sculpin migrate in and out of the caves into the cinque hommes creek to breed, they all travel through his cave first, and last, before hitting daylight to spawn, at least thats what the people who have studied the sculpin say happens..........

groundwater pollution is why they want buffer zones for the sinkholes. polluted ground water goes right into the caves, etc etc etc. Its a messed up deal dude. Luckily 95% of my caving and surveying is 1 county to the north, where the fish doesnt exist. Still, some impressive caves are being closed down for further survey because of this.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby Teresa » Mar 2, 2013 11:38 pm

Another thing people need to realize,though, is you have to think like a cavefish, and not like a human being. Based on tagged fish recovery studies of Ozark cavefish in SW MO and NW AR, the fish really don't seem to care if the caves are there or not. In addition to the caves, cavefish (and presumably other small fish like sculpin) can migrate through any wet interstitial spaces they find, the majority of which are too small for people to get through, or even to realize they exist. Twenty years ago there was even a movement to rename them as "earthfish" as opposed to cavefish. This is the reason that though some caves have notoriety as "cavefish caves" there are only vague bounds or restrictions on development in areas of concern. Much of the city of Springfield is considered Ozark cavefish habitat, and yes there are sinkhole ordinances, but neither economic nor industrial development have ceased in Springfield. It's not the wild west anywhere, people...learn from how other places are prospering while dealing with federally listed fish.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby tncaver » Mar 3, 2013 11:26 am

If there is pollution entering the cave, is it entering from that man's farm or coming from the sinks that are beyond his farm? His farm isn't
all that big and the cave is known to be a mile long or more which more than likely extends well beyond his boundaries. Seems to me the guy is getting a raw deal.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby Chads93GT » Mar 3, 2013 7:15 pm

It's not the cave entrances that are being effected. It's the entire recharge are and In perry county that's a big damn area. Larger than mammoth cave national park if in not mistaken. But in probably wrong.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby tncaver » Mar 3, 2013 8:12 pm

Chads93GT wrote:It's not the cave entrances that are being effected. It's the entire recharge are and In perry county that's a big damn area. Larger than mammoth cave national park if in not mistaken. But in probably wrong.


That's the point. The problem is coming from way beyond that one farmer's land. He is being made the scapegoat.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby Chads93GT » Mar 3, 2013 9:40 pm

No, he is not being made a scape goat, that is what I am saying. he simply has a cave entrance. That doesnt mean that he is more of a target, or less of a target, if the fish becomes endangered. It simply means that he has a cave entrance, nothing else. There are 700 caves in that county and 696 of them are on the east side of the interstate between the interstate and the mississippi river, the larger part of the county on the other side of the county has 4 caves. If you own property on the east side of the interstate, chances are you have a cave. There are lots of people effected by this. This guy simply decided to be vocal.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby tncaver » Mar 4, 2013 7:57 am

The landowner seems to think he is a target and I agree with him if they fence off his sinkholes. I don't agree with you if they fence off his
sinkholes. I don't blame him for keeping cavers out either. I would be just as PO'd as he is under the circumstances.

Chads93GT wrote:No, he is not being made a scape goat, that is what I am saying. he simply has a cave entrance. That doesnt mean that he is more of a target, or less of a target, if the fish becomes endangered. It simply means that he has a cave entrance, nothing else. There are 700 caves in that county and 696 of them are on the east side of the interstate between the interstate and the mississippi river, the larger part of the county on the other side of the county has 4 caves. If you own property on the east side of the interstate, chances are you have a cave. There are lots of people effected by this. This guy simply decided to be vocal.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby Jpiecuch » Mar 4, 2013 8:52 am

I'm surprised by the level of environmental antipathy in some of the posts in this thread. . .

Complicated situation obviously. I know I'm on a caving forum, and a caver, but it's not all about the caves. Some caves that host threatened species should be closed if the situation merits it.

Conservation and caving can and should go hand in hand.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby tncaver » Mar 4, 2013 9:53 am

Caving and Conservation used to go hand in hand. I loved conservation and caving and I still do. Unfortunately, conservation is being replaced by preservation. Some so called conservation groups are no longer conservation groups. They have morphed into preservation groups of the most extreme variety and some of them have way too much money. So called environmental groups are in essence creating antipathy due to their own actions. Going by your NSS number Jpiecuch, I suspect you have not been into caving long enough to know what all has transpired
in the past decade in the caving world.

Jpiecuch wrote:I'm surprised by the level of environmental antipathy in some of the posts in this thread. . .

Complicated situation obviously. I know I'm on a caving forum, and a caver, but it's not all about the caves. Some caves that host threatened species should be closed if the situation merits it.

Conservation and caving can and should go hand in hand.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby Chads93GT » Mar 4, 2013 10:35 am

Jpiecuch wrote:I'm surprised by the level of environmental antipathy in some of the posts in this thread. . .

Complicated situation obviously. I know I'm on a caving forum, and a caver, but it's not all about the caves. Some caves that host threatened species should be closed if the situation merits it.

Conservation and caving can and should go hand in hand.


Sorry, but it hasnt even been proved that this fish is indeed a unique species and not just a sub species of the banded sculpin. Afterall, if they breed with the banded and produce viable offspring.........well.................

Point is, there is hardly anything known about the fish, this is a knee jerk reaction, like always.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby tncaver » Mar 4, 2013 10:53 am

Agreed Chads93GT. A totally screwed up knee jerk reaction by the USFWS if they go through with fencing off the guy's sinkholes. Especially if they fence them off 50 to 100 feet from the edge of the sinks. The big question is, does this situation merit closing off the cave? In my opinion no. There is no evidence presented in the article to merit any action in my opinion, unless it can be proven that pollution is harming the sculpins AND that it is originating from that landowner's sinkholes or his cave entrance.

Chads93GT wrote:
Jpiecuch wrote:I'm surprised by the level of environmental antipathy in some of the posts in this thread. . .

Complicated situation obviously. I know I'm on a caving forum, and a caver, but it's not all about the caves. Some caves that host threatened species should be closed if the situation merits it.

Conservation and caving can and should go hand in hand.


Sorry, but it hasnt even been proved that this fish is indeed a unique species and not just a sub species of the banded sculpin. Afterall, if they breed with the banded and produce viable offspring.........well.................

Point is, there is hardly anything known about the fish, this is a knee jerk reaction, like always.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby Chads93GT » Mar 4, 2013 11:49 am

tncaver wrote:Agreed Chads93GT. A totally screwed up knee jerk reaction by the USFWS if they go through with fencing off the guy's sinkholes. Especially if they fence them off 50 to 100 feet from the edge of the sinks. The big question is, does this situation merit closing off the cave? In my opinion no. There is no evidence presented in the article to merit any action in my opinion, unless it can be proven that pollution is harming the sculpins AND that it is originating from that landowner's sinkholes or his cave entrance.

Chads93GT wrote:
Jpiecuch wrote:I'm surprised by the level of environmental antipathy in some of the posts in this thread. . .

Complicated situation obviously. I know I'm on a caving forum, and a caver, but it's not all about the caves. Some caves that host threatened species should be closed if the situation merits it.

Conservation and caving can and should go hand in hand.


Sorry, but it hasnt even been proved that this fish is indeed a unique species and not just a sub species of the banded sculpin. Afterall, if they breed with the banded and produce viable offspring.........well.................

Point is, there is hardly anything known about the fish, this is a knee jerk reaction, like always.


Man you are killing me, How many times do I have to say this. NO one is fencing off his sink holes. You are preaching this article like its the law and its not. It is a misinformed and uneducated land owner ranting about what he THINKS is going to happen. How many times do I have to say this? As I said, take this article with a grain of salt. This guy doesn't know what he is talking about and the reporter that wrote the article is one of the worst excuses for a journalist in the area. She recently wrote a WNS article that totally blamed cavers for spreading the damn disease. The blind leading the blind. What is being talked about is enforcing the vegetative BUFFER ZONE around the sink holes that have been dug out with track hoes and steel vertical stand pipes installed to allow fast drainage of water. The reason is without the vegetative buffer zones field chemical runoff, sediment runoff and animal waste flows freely into the cave systems contaminating the ground water and killing the fish. When the MDC started paying farmers to do the stand pipes, major bad move on their part, the vegetative buffer zone was required by law but the farmers have blatantly disregarded this, farming right up to the sinkholes. Basically the farmers have been shitting in their own back yard and they are mad that the laws that they agreed to abide by, but haven't, are now going to be enforced. There is no fencing of a sinkhole unless a farmer wants to build a fence, to keep cows out, as its cheaper to keep a cave open and close it from livestock with a fence, than to have a stand pipe installed, thus burying the cave.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby tncaver » Mar 4, 2013 4:15 pm

When discussing the issue of fencing off the sinkholes, I used the word "if", meaning that I was not preaching anything as law yet. Go back and read what I said again. I'll help you out. Here is what I said: "A totally screwed up knee jerk reaction by the USFWS "IF" they go through with fencing off the guy's sinkholes.

I hope you will keep us informed should the sinks be fenced against the landowner's wishes. Looks to me like the FEDS and cavers have already
PO'd the landowner regardless of whether fences are installed or not.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby Teresa » Mar 5, 2013 9:30 pm

Jpiecuch wrote:I'm surprised by the level of environmental antipathy in some of the posts in this thread. . .

Complicated situation obviously. I know I'm on a caving forum, and a caver, but it's not all about the caves. Some caves that host threatened species should be closed if the situation merits it.
.
Conservation and caving can and should go hand in hand.


Most of us believed this, and worked hard (for free) for decades. We were happy to share the caves, and cared for their residents, when no one else did. Then came the Endangered Species Act. Even then, most of us worked towards reasonable accommodations to enable species to survive. Then came WNS, and agency after agency who declared WE were the problem, the culprits and the cause of the fungal spreading.

Which is not true.

After decades of trust, we were painted with a broad brush as "bad guys" in the media. They needed someone to blame. Most people are not very critical thinkers, and the aaccusations have stuck. Conservation and caving can go hand in hand, just like fishing, hunting, hiking and other outdoor sports. That's not good enough for people whe think that people are not animals, with certain rights in the natural world, too. Who think nature is "something apart" that can be preserved independent of humans.

We'll get through all of this muddle, too. But it's painful, anyway.
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Re: Not welcome at this cave, anymore

Postby NZcaver » Mar 6, 2013 12:28 am

:exactly: What Teresa said.
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