A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cranky

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A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cranky

Postby John Lovaas » Aug 4, 2011 1:10 pm

I read this article today, and thought to myself- ah- written by some hipster lit major on their iPad while they sipped their trente latte, gazing lovingly at the custom paint job on their fixie. Just some bashing, without much in the way of actual content, other than, "what's the most tacky and plebian place YOU can think of..."

But no! It was written by the current president of Southern Polytechnic State University, who also happens to have a PhD in geology. Go figure.

If you, or someone you love, is a geologist, maybe you could draft some a reply or comment. As to the article's focus on NPS sites- I've never had the thought of any NPS cave as being overtly "commercialized".

http://www.earthmagazine.org/earth/article/467-7db-7-1c
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby GroundquestMSA » Aug 4, 2011 2:39 pm

As a little kid I was completely disgusted by the Mammoth Cave tour. Colored lights, cute names and daft stories for speleothems, and a restroom. In the cave. I despise the commercialization of nature.

I would certainly call the story light, but I don't know that it's inaccurate. I haven't been to all of the caves or most of the landmarks mentioned but I imagine many are pretty much as described.
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby nathanroser » Aug 4, 2011 4:05 pm

The mention of mines as being over commercialized is quite laughable, mines aren't natural to begin with. And giving public tours has much less of an impact on the local environment than an actual operating mine where excavations are being done.
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby John Lovaas » Aug 4, 2011 5:12 pm

GroundquestMSA wrote:As a little kid I was completely disgusted by the Mammoth Cave tour. Colored lights,


Some quick math tells me I've been caving at Mammoth Cave since you were 4 years old. I haven't seen colored lights in the cave during that time. Any color other than white, that is.

cute names and daft stories for speleothems,


not to bum you out- but that would describe every cave- wild or commercial- that has ever been mapped. People name stuff, and sometimes it comes off as cute or daft. I'm unaware of any names in Mammoth that would meet the definition of cute or daft.

GroundquestMSA wrote:restroom In the cave..


Well, as a little kid, would you have been willing to use a turkey baster bag? Didn't think so.
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby Teresa » Aug 4, 2011 5:16 pm

I actually did as Ms. Rossbacher asked in Earth Magazine, and sent her a list of geological sites which I consider hyper-commercial, and requested that she remove two of the candidates: (Fantastic Caverns and Barringer Crater) from her list. The citing of Fantastic is just erroneous, compared to other show caves, and I didn't find Barringer Crater that obnoxiously commercial.

OTOH, what is wrong with commercialized as long as it isn't destroyed? Someone/something has to pay the bills, and it beats having the sites obliterated. (Except for the sites which are obliterating the rocks...such as Mt. Rushmore, Crazy Horse Memorial, Stone Mountain, GA, etc.)

By the way...there are a long list of NPS sites which have been commercialized...I think the big 3 (all rock parks) are the worst:
(Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Yosemite).
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby John Lovaas » Aug 4, 2011 6:34 pm

I guess I'm just bewildered by the inaccurate and flippant tone of the article.

For example:

My curiosity had been piqued by a trip through Wisconsin Dells, a glacially carved river valley that has the world’s largest concentration of water parks (complete with the requisite fudge shops, tchotchke shops and miniature golf courses). Before that trip, my top nominee would have been Natural Bridge in Virginia, which has featured the seasonal sound-and-light show, “Drama of Creation,” since 1927. Today, the site can be rented for a conference or a wedding.

One would think Ms. Rossbacher is describing the Dells of the Wisconsin Dells- but she is not. She is describing the town of Wisconsin Dells, a town, formerly known as Kilbourn, that is a craptastic tourist craphole- but fails to point out that the actual Dells of the Wisconsin River are north and south of the town, and are, almost entirely, contained within a Wisconsin State Natural Area that is closed to human entry. Not exactly commercialized.

The Ducks and tour boats that allow visitors to see the features in the Dells? Since the river is a navigable waterway, there's nothing to be done about that.

She includes this quote about the Grand Canyon-

Bruce Johnson (a retired federal employee) says the “First place that comes to mind for me is the Grand Canyon, particularly the south rim, ugh! What with the burros, the helicopters, and the inn at the bottom, I think they have done a pretty good job [of commercialization] for a place that's essentially difficult to access.”

The helicopters? I'm sure that GCNP management finds them to be every bit as annoying as Mr. Johnson, and would very much like them to disappear- but so long as the FAA allows them to fly over the canyon, they'll fly over the canyons; the FAA is in charge of the airspace above a certain elevation, not NPS-

http://www.nps.gov/grca/naturescience/a ... chrono.htm

The burros? They've been bringing people in and out of the canyon for at least as long as I'd wager Mr. Johnson's family's DNA has been on this continent. They are useful for bringing goods to not only Grand Canyon Village, but to the Native American communities in the bottom of the Canyon. And they're probably also very useful for hauling the corpses of 20-something yo dude! frat-bros who think they can hike to the bottom of the canyon and back up in a day. The lodge in Grand Canyon Village? Grand Canyon Village predates the park, so if Mr. Johnson would like wander into the hornet's nest of land takings and historic structure regulations, he's free to do so- but I do not.

My take is- these places- Yellowstone, Yosemite, the Grand Canyon- as they are formally managed, are not commercialized, but that outside forces drive and manage anything that can be correctly defined as commercial. As to Mammoth Cave? 2016 marks the 200th anniversary of guided tours in the cave. There's more than a century of "commercialization" at Mammoth Cave before it even became a National Park. And yet, the last time I set foot in this "commercialized" cave, we rigged a rope and dropped a pit no human being had visited before, and surveyed- until we were too chilled to continue- a drain leading off of the dome that goes on, and on, and on.... and is not very commercial.
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby nathanroser » Aug 4, 2011 6:52 pm

Well no place can be as craptastic a tourist craphole as South of the Border which is right off I-95 just south of the line between North and South Carolina.
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby GroundquestMSA » Aug 4, 2011 9:42 pm

John Lovaas wrote:Some quick math tells me I've been caving at Mammoth Cave since you were 4 years old. I haven't seen colored lights in the cave during that time. Any color other than white, that is.


I apologize. I'm perfectly willing to admit that I may have my memories of Mammoth confused with some other cave tour.

John Lovaas wrote:not to bum you out- but that would describe every cave- wild or commercial- that has ever been mapped. People name stuff, and sometimes it comes off as cute or daft. I'm unaware of any names in Mammoth that would meet the definition of cute or daft.


I understand. I simply remember squirming as tour guides told these awful folk fantasies of speleothem formation and cave discovery. Again, maybe it was another cave and I spoke too quickly. I realize I'm probably too cynical about these sort of things and that others probably enjoyed it.
As for the restroom, I'm sure it was in Mammoth. I think most people could make it through a short tour without the need for a bathroom but I understand that having a restroom may possibly make the cave more accessible for people who may not otherwise get to enjoy it, and I guess that's a good thing. But you have to admit that it's a tad unnatural. I know most of you here were caving before I was an amoeba. I respect that. I was trying to give my impressions of commercial caves, not criticize a particular one. Development of caves or other natural areas drastically reduces their appeal for me personally.
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby Crockett » Aug 5, 2011 8:44 am

The author confused development with commercialization of a geological feature. It is a poorly conceived and researched article...or am I just cranky?
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby Teresa » Aug 5, 2011 12:58 pm

Ms. Rossbacher doesn't define "commercialization" as opposed from developed, disneyfied, or craptastic. She does cite these show caves: Howe Caverns, Fantastic Caverns, Lost River Cave, Grand Canyon Caverns, Mammoth Cave, Luray Caverns, and Carlsbad. She's off-base about Fantastic; unlike some of the others, it isn't the base of the local economy, and it has a very strong and accurate, geological/biological/conservation message, nor does it have most of the accoutrements of theme park show caves.There are other Missouri show caves I would include in descending order: Marvel (the base of Silver Dollar City and tourist Branson) Mark Twain (quite a little enterprise for a pretty small town) and Meramec Caverns (where providing entertainment and escape from the hot, humid Missouri summer is an almost 80 year old family tradition). But as I said above: I don't find private enterprise caves (where some care has to be taken to keep the people coming) nearly as revolting as giant monuments. Sometimes, show caves are so bad they are good. And other times, they are just baaaaaaad...but hey, anyplace people are making money doing what they love is a good place...

I disagree with John exempting the big 3 rock parks as "not commercialized." I've never been to Yosemite, just heard horror stories, but I've been to the other two. While both have large backcountries which are only somewhat minorly impacted, the South Rim of the Canyon and the tourist hubs in Yellowstone are most definitely developed with the notion to make money from the scenic beauty. Mammoth and Carlsbad have their attendant small cities as do the Canyon and Yellowstone. To me, any place where the local rocks have made people move there to make money from tourists is "commercial."

I was a little surprised Endless Caverns didn't make her list considering its David Letterman notoriety and now that it is a NASCAR RV Park. The Lookout Mountain entertainment complex gets mention in my book, as does Silver Springs Florida.

I actually think this is an interesting, though a bit offbeat examination of geology's influence on people. That's what the Geologic Column does (the page at the back of the magazine, where Rossbacher and Fred Schwab (also a geo prof) and occasional guests provide thought-provoking commentary.)
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby NZcaver » Aug 5, 2011 8:24 pm

John Lovaas wrote:The burros? They've been bringing people in and out of the canyon for at least as long as I'd wager Mr. Johnson's family's DNA has been on this continent. They are useful for bringing goods to not only Grand Canyon Village, but to the Native American communities in the bottom of the Canyon. And they're probably also very useful for hauling the corpses of 20-something yo dude! frat-bros who think they can hike to the bottom of the canyon and back up in a day.

I've hiked in the canyon, and personally I loathe the burros urinating/defecating everywhere, stirring up dust, and being a major negative impact on the wilderness experience. Of course it's not the fault of the animals themselves, but I do question why there is still a "need" for concessionaire tourist (or even freight) operations of this type in the park. Last time I was hiking there, a very arrogant ass-guide almost received a free flying lesson.

Totally :off topic: for caving, but if people are throwing in their 2 cents I thought I'd join the fray... :waving:
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby baa43003 » Aug 8, 2011 2:47 pm

:off topic: but, since we don't like non-cavers getting their cave facts mixed up, let's not confuse burros with mules. Mules are what you run into in the Grand Canyon and are what you get when you breed a male burro with a female horse.
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby John Lovaas » Aug 8, 2011 3:28 pm

DOH! I quoted "retired Federal employee Bruce Johnson". Had I recalled that I took pictures of the mules both times Dawn and I visited Grand Canyon, I would have remembered that they were- mules.

NZ- strangely enough, smelling equine and bovine waste makes me vaguely nostalgic- where I grew up, there was a cow pasture next to our backyard, and a horse pasture next to my bedroom window.

I was pondering the article yesterday, and am currently of the mind that none of it involves a discussion of impacts on geologic features- but it does reveal a lot about human perception of crowds and ancillary tourism that occurs wherever significant natural features are situated. Are Grand Canyon, Yosemite, and Mammoth Cave 'commercialized', or 'over-commercialized?' By any proper definition of the term 'commercialization'- no.

The parks do what they can to ensure that visitors get to enjoy these features, and to mitigate their impacts upon the parks. Asides from voluntary human extinction, there's no perfect way to mitigate human impact on the parks. I think that the author- and others- confused "commercialization" with "a lot of people want to see these places, and land managers are trying to ensure that the place doesn't look like Bonnaroo after a rainstorm." Before there was anything called WNS, I clearly recall the loud shrieks of indignation when a private landowner or public manager took any action to limit or control access to the caves they owned or controlled, in order to mitigate impact on the caves. Expand that philosophy to the National Park system, and I imagine you'd have a riot!

So we, the public, want to enjoy our public lands as 'we' see fit- but we all have differing views on how to do that. At some level, we should be happy that people are still interested in getting out of their cars for 5 minutes to see the Grand Canyon, or wait for a bus to take them into Yosemite Valley. If they only knew that it would be on TV soon....
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby NZcaver » Aug 9, 2011 1:48 am

I stand corrected on the burros. In my defense I knew they were mules, but parroted John's post without thinking about that. Poo is not my favorite smell, but the mule urine is particularly pungent in the heat of the canyon.

Too much information?
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Re: A smarmy article about commercial caves- or am I just cr

Postby Jon » Aug 10, 2011 1:10 am

Hey NZ, You do know that many people do the same things as the mules along the trails.....
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