Camps Gulf

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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Jan 26, 2011 12:34 pm

The Department of Environment and Conservation is located in the L & C Tower at 401 Church Street in Nashville, TN.

You could Google "Tennessee Department of Environment and Conservation" and get the Zip Code and perhaps even more specific addresses (Floor number, etc.).

This is where if you don't get a reply, you contact your State Representative and/or State Senator and ask "Why?" can't these people respond to State residents and voters?

I could tell you horror stories about some of those people, since I used to work there. All are political hacks of the worst sort. At least, the ones in management. Us "Little People" were OK. :)

Mike Carlton, who heads Parks, actually called me on the telephone and threatened me shortly after the "Dunbar Cave" book came out.

Larry
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby tncaver » Jan 26, 2011 12:50 pm

Larry E. Matthews wrote:Mike Carlton, who heads Parks, actually called me on the telephone and threatened me shortly after the "Dunbar Cave" book came out.
Larry


Too bad you didn't record that phone conversation. I bet the news media would love to hear it.
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Jan 26, 2011 1:02 pm

Yeah. He "claimed" that for me as a State employee to write a book on Dunbar Cave was somehow a violation of the State's Conflict of Interest Policy.

I explained to him that the book was published by the NSS, a bona-fide non-profit organization and that I had donated the Copyright to the NSS and they made all the proceeds. He said it was "Still a violation of the State's Conflict of Interest Policy."

As much as they hate cavers, if it was, they would have had me in the Commissioner's Office that afternoon and fired me.

Larry
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby tncaver » Jan 26, 2011 1:07 pm

Larry E. Matthews wrote:Yeah. He "claimed" that for me as a State employee to write a book on Dunbar Cave was somehow a violation of the State's Conflict of Interest Policy.

I explained to him that the book was published by the NSS, a bona-fide non-profit organization and that I had donated the Copyright to the NSS and they made all the proceeds. He said it was "Still a violation of the State's Conflict of Interest Policy."

As much as they hate cavers, if it was, they would have had me in the Commissioner's Office that afternoon and fired me.

Larry


Larry, why do you suppose they hate cavers? Cavers are pro environment and they volunteer free labor quite frequently. Makes no sense.
Sounds like an example of the dog that bites the hand that feeds.
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Jan 26, 2011 2:12 pm

The State was letting the City of Spencer build a new Sewage Treatment Plant. They gave them a Permit to dump treated sewage into a Dry Creek, that flowed into Falls Creek Falls State Park and then into the entrance to Rumbling Falls Cave, which has the largest cave room in the Eastern United States..

It was all about BIG MONEY. These guys (the City Big Wigs) and their friends were subdividing several thousand acres next to Fall Creek Falls State Park, BUT..........the soil was too shallow for septic tanks. So, rather than build their own sewage treatment plant, they used State Funds to build this plant that the citizens of the City didn't want and didn't need. (The sewage treatment plant wasn't built in Spencer, oh no, five miles down the road by the new subdivisions.)

Cavers, and other environmental groups, sued them and won. They were violating almost all their own rules and regulations. They hate our guts. They knew I was a caver, so they took most of their hatred out on me.

Larry
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby tncaver » Jan 26, 2011 2:29 pm

Larry E. Matthews wrote:The State was letting the City of Spencer build a new Sewage Treatment Plant. They gave them a Permit to dump treated sewage into a Dry Creek, that flowed into Falls Creek Falls State Park and then into the entrance to Rumbling Falls Cave, which has the largest cave room in the Eastern United States..

It was all about BIG MONEY. These guys (the City Big Wigs) and their friends were subdividing several thousand acres next to Fall Creek Falls State Park, BUT..........the soil was too shallow for septic tanks. So, rather than build their own sewage treatment plant, they used State Funds to build this plant that the citizens of the City didn't want and didn't need. (The sewage treatment plant wasn't built in Spencer, oh no, five miles down the road by the new subdivisions.)

Cavers, and other environmental groups, sued them and won. They were violating almost all their own rules and regulations. They hate our guts. They knew I was a caver, so they took most of their hatred out on me.

Larry


Oh. That again. Government doesn't like being forced to do what they should already be doing but don't.
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 26, 2011 6:50 pm

I cant comment on your State, but when I was a State DNR employee, writing such a book without prior approval would absolutely have been a violation. The publisher is mostly irrelevant. It was actually illegal for a Forestry department employee (even if you had nothing to do with actual forestry) to buy PRIVATE forested property from willing sellers if it wasn't sold throgh a realtor and advertised publicly. They couldn't buy some private forest lands AT ALL

While financial conflicts are the obvious ones, the mere fact that I was employed by the DNR and had written a book about a DNR property would have required approval. Since my specific job dealt with caves and bats, I would be even more restricted in outside publishing activities related to those areas.

Now, the flip side is that sure they could fire you on a whim. They would also would have to DEFEND that firing when you sued. Unless it was really egregious and something they could easily win in court, it was probably easier to just yell about it. The fact that you were donating the money and probably didn't totally trash the DNR made it a battle not worth fighting. Of course, under your State policies it might not have been improper anyway.
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Jan 26, 2011 7:03 pm

Well, the State of Tennessee's "Conflict of Interest Policy" is in writing, and I had read it carefully.

I absolutely was not in violation of the Policy.

In fact, we were required to read it every year, and sign at the bottom, saying that we had read it and would abide by it's rules.

Trust me.........if I had been in violation, they would have fired me.

Larry
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby Batgirl » Jan 27, 2011 1:36 am

Well, here is some good news! I recently attended the TN Cave and Karst Working Group meeting held at Fall Creek Falls this past weekend. The meeting was great and included alot of really great presenters. One of the things they (NC of TN and USFWS) mentioned is that they are considering reopening some of the caves for scientific research such as mapping and inventory assessments. Probably won't happen until WNS has wreaked its havoc in TN, which could still be a couple of years. I think this is a huge step in the right direction and a good gesture on their part. All is not lost! Cooperation is key!
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Jan 27, 2011 7:57 am

A "good gesture on their part" that they MIGHT open some of the caves in a few years? And then for "scientific research"?

That means IF you are in one of their "most favored" groups, you MIGHT get special permission to go in. Why not allow caving on public property? They allow hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, etc., etc. Why do we get separate and UNEQUAL treatment? Caving is just as legitimate a sport as all those others.

You sound like they are doing you a favor. You and I own those caves, not them.

Larry
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby BrianC » Jan 27, 2011 9:13 am

Larry E. Matthews wrote:A "good gesture on their part" that they MIGHT open some of the caves in a few years? And then for "scientific research"?

That means IF you are in one of their "most favored" groups, you MIGHT get special permission to go in. Why not allow caving on public property? They allow hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, etc., etc. Why do we get separate and UNEQUAL treatment? Caving is just as legitimate a sport as all those others.

You sound like they are doing you a favor. You and I own those caves, not them.

Larry


Exactly right, Larry. If they could come up with sound reasoning, I would listen. All that they have is sup positional theoretical mumble jumble. etc.etc.etc... Not one evidence of sound science placing cavers as any sort of culprit, but I digress as they have the power and the fines to levee against anyone that might know what is right. I am just making noise, not very loud, but noise anyway.
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 27, 2011 7:58 pm

I have to go with Larry here.

The State of Indiana made a similiar "gesture". In exchange for cavers agreeing up front to whatever their policy would be and closures and doing the footwork to educate public and caver folks about it...they *might* someday consider opening some caves somewhere. Ohh and by the way can you give us private landowner contacts so we can encourage them to close caves too? We declined their "good will".

I respect the work Peter has done for cavers and the NSS. I don't see where our "cozy" relationship with the USFWS has actually helped us any. It has indeed given us the ability to give our opinions and insight....which were almost universally ignored.
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby Larry E. Matthews » Jan 27, 2011 8:28 pm

Well, apparently our opinions and insight aren't very welcome here in Tennessee. THEY (government cave owners and the gate builders) had a big meeting up at Fall Creek Falls State Park last weekend, but the Nashville Grotto and other Grottos only got wind of the meeting two weeks ahead of time. Based on the very long agenda and the list of speakers, this must have been in the planning stages for a good six (6) months.

The government, Federal and State, the biologists, and the Nature Conservancy just don't want sport caving, at all. They want to own all the caves, gate all the caves, and control all the caves. Of course, they can go in any time they like. And they do.

You are either IN the click, or you are an outsider. I guess you know which I am.

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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby wyandottecaver » Jan 27, 2011 8:51 pm

Well darn, Larry and I were getting along so well... :big grin:

I was actually glad with TN efforts. They "repealed" a few WNS counties based on the data, and seemed to at least try to get folks involved. 2 weeks isn't bad for a government agency. They have also been very open about the fact that they need to do better at involving cavers and are actively asking for help.

Contrast that with Indiana State DNR. Cavers? yea we'll get back with you. 6 months later....Cavers? oh yea no we aren't gonna open caves, and can you please give us private landowner data so we can get them to close caves too?....6 months later....A permit for science? in a cave? nope. Oh..You have a PHD? O.K., you can go in these 3 caves. What? yea they are all commercial so what?

I'm exaggerating.....a VERY VERY small amount to protect the innocent and guilty alike.
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Re: Camps Gulf

Postby Batgirl » Jan 28, 2011 11:42 am

I am certainly not defending them because I agree with you Larry, but the reality is that we are having to engage and build a relationship where none existed before. Apparently, there has never been a reason for the NSS and the federal and state agencies to join together and partner on cave issues (which is pretty strange to me). You would think with all that cavers have done to protect caves and its contents over the past 40 years, there would have been plenty of opportunities to work together. But this didn't happen.

Now, here we are facing a giant crisis with no relationships formed with any of these people. And since the spread of G.d. by humans is still a plausible theory, the federal and state governments are doing what they are required by law to do - protect threatened or endangered species. If we want different results, then we must become engaged in the process, which is what I have been trying to do for the last couple of years. And I believe we are making considerable progress. As someone who has worked in government many years, I am always thankful for the small victories.
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