Russel Cave Survey and Info Please

[Larry E. Matthews]

The list of "excuses" that the National Park Service can come up with to keep cavers out of caves is truly mind boggling.

Last year, I was denied access to Gregorys Cave in Great Smoky Mountain National Park, to conduct Historical Reasearch, because the cave contained radon gas. That excuse went down the tubes years ago, but they figured I didn't know any better. So when I showed them the Park Service's own data for Mammoth Cave and how it relates to hundreds of hours per year of exposure, they.....................simply moved on to the NEXT excuse.

This went on for months....and months....and months. At one point, I couldn't go in due to "White Nose Syndrome". They even sent me a list of endangered species of bats that should not be disturbed during hibernation. Just one problem....they didn't use Gregorys Cave to hibernate. They really never run out of excuses. They make them up as they go.

The real story is that this is a National Park Service policy for all National Parks, not just Russell Cave. They don't want YOU in THEIR caves. Just one problem: Those aren't their caves, they are ours.

It is patently unfair that people can kayak, climb mountains, fish, hang glide, and do many other outdoor sports in National Parks, yet we as cavers are singled out to not be allowed to persue our sport. Or, in my case, to conduct research.

I did finally get in. Apparently, it was an unintentional mistake, on their part !!!

Larry E. Matthews
NSS #6792-F

[Larry E. Matthews]

Considering that Russell Cave is the Third Longest cave in Alabama and 90 on the United States Long Cave List, this sounds like a good candidate for the SCCI to either purchase one of the cave entrances or lease one of the cave entrances. Then, qualified cavers could have access to the cave. According to Bill Torode, there are leads left to be explored.

The Third Longest cave in Alabama is a BIG cave in anybody's book. What an absolute shame that it is closed to cavers. And, for no good reason. Shame, shame, shame on the National Park Service.

Hey SCCI, buy an Entrance and I'll donate $1,000. Any other volunteers out there?

Larry E. Matthews
NSS #6792-F

[NZcaver]

The real story is that this is a National Park Service policy for all National Parks, not just Russell Cave. They don't want YOU in THEIR caves. Just one problem: Those aren't their caves, they are ours.

It is patently unfair that people can kayak, climb mountains, fish, hang glide, and do many other outdoor sports in National Parks, yet we as cavers are singled out to not be allowed to persue our sport. Or, in my case, to conduct research.

This is not related to Russell Cave, but considering your NPS rant I think it's relevant nonetheless.

I've spent time in dozens of NPS-managed caves around the US, and found the overwhelming majority of NPS cave resource staff to be nothing but superb. In several cases I was helping out with one project or another as a volunteer, sometimes for the NPS and sometimes independently. But in many cases I was just an ordinary person wanting to do some caving. I realize NPS cave policies can sometimes be less than ideal, but thankfully I've never encountered the kind of resistance you're talking about or any apparent discrimination against caving and cavers in general. I'm just lucky, I guess. Or could it be an attitude thing?

[Spike]

I can't speak as to the policies at Russel Cave, but I can say without hesitation that I have been in more caves owned and managed by the NPS than those that are not NPS caves. I have been provided free lodging by the NPS while exploring not only the caves they own and manage but even caves outside the parks. Also please remember that odds are when you're slamming a NPS cave manager you are slamming a fellow caver who cares about their job.

Spike

[CaverScott]

I've spent time in dozens of NPS-managed caves around the US, and found the overwhelming majority of NPS cave resource staff to be nothing but superb. ...

Any of these caves been East of the Mississippi River? Based on my similar experiences (out west), I am speculating that the eastern NPS manages the cave resources rather differently than their western counterparts.

[NZcaver]

I've spent time in dozens of NPS-managed caves around the US, and found the overwhelming majority of NPS cave resource staff to be nothing but superb. ...

Any of these caves been East of the Mississippi River? Based on my similar experiences (out west), I am speculating that the eastern NPS manages the cave resources rather differently than their western counterparts.

Considering the vast majority of NPS caves are west of the Mississippi, admittedly no. So you may indeed have a valid point about the east/west thing.

[Spike]

My experiences have been from both sides of the Mississippi.

Spike

[Larry E. Matthews]

No, I am not "slamming" fellow cavers. All the people I have dealt with that ban caving in National Parks are non-cavers. And, no, I am not stupid. I ask very, very politely and explain in great detail the historical research I am doing.

I am talking specifically about caves in Alabama, Kentucky, and Tennessee, areas close to where I live.

It's not just me. Most of the people I talk to have had the same experience. They actually act insulted that you would ever dare to ask them !!!

And, yes, if they want some WORK done, they'll let you in to carry out trash, or something else like that. Whoopee !!! But, don't go back and ask for permission to go explore.

Larry E. Matthews
NSS #6792-F

[Phil Winkler]

Larry, have you ever tried going over their head? A nice letter to a NPS mucky-muck in Washington?

Your Congressman might be of assistance, too. Indignant task payer and all that.

Just a thought.

[Larry E. Matthews]

By the time I got desperate enough to do that with Gregorys Cave in Great Smoky Mountains National Park, it would have probably been too late to do any good, since we were trying to have the book ready in time for the Convention.

I even applied for a Research Permit and never got any answer at all. You wouldn't believe all the emails, letters, and phone calls I made. Ironically, while I was being denied access to a gated cave, a group of Yahoos snuck into Bull Cave, and had to be rescued, but the Park Service wouldn't even sign a warrant on them for trespassing !!! They were locals, and one was a preacher.

I did talk to some cavers/emplyees there at GSMNP who were VERY sympathetic, but they couldn't help. They weren't high enough up on the Food Chain. They, too, were disgusted that there was no written policy on cave access and a formal way to make requests.

Thank God, I am now doing research on a cave NOT in a National Park, and with an exceptionally friendly owner. It just doesn't get any better than that.

Larry E. Matthews
NSS #6792-F