NEW DEEP CAVE IN MONTANA

[mtwildernesscaver]

Montana's newly discovered deep cave, Virgil The Turtle's Great House Cave is 1586 feet deep. Discovered and mapped by Hans Bodenhamer, Jason Ballensky, Philip Rykwalder, and Ben Sainsbury it lies 23 miles into the Bob Marshall Wilderness.

[caverbob]

Which makes it the 5 deepest in the USA or 2nd deepest in the Continental US after Lechuguilla Cave at 1604.

[wendy]

I'd like to know more bout this cave, even some pictures would be nice.

[Anonymous_Coward]

Phil tells me we can look forward to an article in the NSS News soon, so you'll get to see some photos then. Poor old Lechy, those Montana guys are after you.

[karstcreature]

hey all-

We took a few pictures of Virgil - some turned out, most did not - here are the results...

http://www.redtrails.com/travels/0706.html

Ben
lech beware....

[CaverScott]

Great job!

Oh wow - This also means that Great X got bumped to the number four spot on the USA Deep List.....

[cavemanjonny]

Wow!! I look forward to reading the article! By the way, ff you guys need any help, I'd be willing to drag a shovel down to the bottom and help dig down 20 feet.....

[Rick Brinkman]

Virgil made the cover of the NSS News!!!!!!

[bill fish]

Hi

regarding this cave...

Is it just a "minor" cave that goes pretty deep.....or is a major cave where the main route quickly lead deep....

Or in other words is there a chance of a fair bit more cave passage possiblities that might or might not lead to a deeper overall depth?

How much deeper might it go....based on local geology/groundwater ect ect.....

Which brings up an interesting question.....are there any areas in the USA that could possibly/reasonably result in a pretty darn deep cave that don't seem to have any "yet"?

Not trying to "down play" the significance of the cave....myself I think alot of the records regarding caves are pretty meaningless myself....pretty much any cave is worth visisting as far as I am concerned....and comparing any two caves (often in even the same local) is pretty much apples to oranges as far as I am concerned....

Blll

[Ralph E. Powers]

Hi

regarding this cave...

Is it just a "minor" cave that goes pretty deep.....or is a major cave where the main route quickly lead deep....

Or in other words is there a chance of a fair bit more cave passage possiblities that might or might not lead to a deeper overall depth?

From the website http://www.redtrails.com/travels/0706.html
Deep Cave Announcement - Ron Zuber

Name: Virgil The Turtle's Great House Cave
State: Montana
County: Flathead
Length Miles: 1.02 miles (5394 feet)
Length Meters: 1644 meters
Depth Feet: -1586 feet
Depth Meters: -483.4 meters
Source: Bodenhamer, Ballensky, Rykwalder, Sainsbury (via. e-mail)
Date: August 24, 2006

Which brings up an interesting question.....are there any areas in the USA that could possibly/reasonably result in a pretty darn deep cave that don't seem to have any "yet"?

Not trying to "down play" the significance of the cave....myself I think alot of the records regarding caves are pretty meaningless myself....pretty much any cave is worth visisting as far as I am concerned....and comparing any two caves (often in even the same local) is pretty much apples to oranges as far as I am concerned....

Blll

While depth sometimes doesn't always equal the length and vice-versa around that part of the country it's atypical of the caves. The strata and bedding planes have been pushed up to vertical or near vertical and thus the water has no recourse but to travel down following the path of least resistance. Thus the caves out west of the continential divide tend to be relatively short in length but great in depth as opposed to eastern caves (i.e.) east of the Mississippi river where not great in depth but long in length(s). But as you say it's apples and oranges. But still a cave that extends to over a mile in length is a pretty good size cave... out there anyway, considering the strike and dips of the rock and bedding planes.
There are a great many DEEP caves out west and I'll attest to that having caved in the area for over 15 years, problem with many of them is location and accessability. Now I'm here in TAG country and am still surprised to find many of the caves a relatively short walk or just right off the rud. Back west many of the caves require a hike of anywhere between 45 minutes to 2 hours to get to, and that is going up hill sometimes gaining 1000 to 1500 feet of elevation and slopes ranging anywhere between 30 to 70 degrees in places. It tends to discourage casual ridgewalking and turns most cave hunting to 2-3 day expeditions.
The "western" 11 states has great potential for a majorly deep cave of over 2000 feet; Main Drain in Utah (-1230 ft) has still yet been totally pushed. Nielsens cave (also Utah) currently stands at -880' but the dye trace shows a depth (resurgance) of -2240, this cave likewise has yet to be fully pushed. Like Mammoth/Flint-ridge, Jewel and Wind Caves before, it takes time to push a cave to it's fullest, and even Mammoth and the others has yet to be fully discovered (if I'm not mistaken).
I myself know of a few caves which show promise of going passage which would extend their lengths/depths but I'd have to be the size of a pack-rat to get into the holes.

But kudos for this major find/effort. We American cavers will eventually find that DEEP cave that'll put the ones in europe to shame! (just kidding).

[Rick Brinkman]

Ralph answered most of your questions much more eloquently than I could have. Thanks Ralph.

As to more specifics about Virgil, doesn't sound like it will go any deeper (I haven't been there) or have any side passages. Of course, these guys can be pretty tight lipped. I know 2 of them well, and they didn't even give me a hint of what they had found in '05.

One of the neat things about Virgil is that it blew away the previous Montana depth record by 500'. MANY cavers have been trying to find another 1000-footer for 30 years.

Our limestone here is up to 1700' feet thick, and (as Ralph noted) often tilted to a steep angle. Will a US limestone cave deeper than 2000' ever be found? I think so. Will it be in Montana?

[Ralph E. Powers]

Our limestone here is up to 1700' feet thick, and (as Ralph noted) often tilted to a steep angle. Will a US limestone cave deeper than 2000' ever be found? I think so. Will it be in Montana?

Well you Montana boys better get crackin... the Utah folks are busting butts to find that 2000 footer. All signs point to one and with Main Drain leading the way more and more deeper caves are being found all the time. Ya just never know... so get out there and get busy... Good luck to you guys... and to the folks in Colorado as well as they probably got more potential than the two states put together.

[DanGreen]

Of interest, just a few hundred kilometres north of the Montana Bob Marshall Wilderness and caves, and just across the Montana border into the SE Rockies, a few cavers from the Alberta Speleological Society have been pushing a deep new caving area. During the last trips in October, we pushed two caves within 20 metres of each other, and although the connection won't be easy, the caves just won't end. The caves are difficult: one is exactly 500 metres deep with 30 pitches needed to bottom, the other is 306m deep with 15 pitches and was left going at another drop. The connection would make it 653m deep (2142 feet) and one fantastic 300+ metre deep through trip.

[Evan G]

Well you Montana boys better get crackin... the Utah folks are busting butts to find that 2000 footer. All signs point to one and with Main Drain leading the way more and more deeper caves are being found all the time. Ya just never know... so get out there and get busy... :Waving: Good luck to you guys... and to the folks in Colorado as well as they probably got more potential than the two states put together. :Very Happy:

Montana, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, anyone for a friendly game of "Find the 2000 footer first or just find a -1000 footer"

Let's see if I can rally the Wyoming cavers!

[center]:boxing: LETS GET READY TO GO CCCAAAAVVVIIIINNNNGGG!!!!!!!! Alpine Style >>> Dorthy your not TAG anymore
[/center]

Looks like I better call the A squad together!

Mudface, Monkey, Squirrel : You guy's up for deep survey? The snow level is low this year, so it will be a long season.

Jumar, Mtcaver, Radon, Gapstone, Leird ????? High country anyone?

side thought >>> Boy are we the underdogs