Where is incredible pit?

[Chads93GT]

The short easy answer is............follow the fault line to find incredible pit............ and to find fantastic ................ good luck You could spend hours simply finding your way up the breakdown pile in the room. as following the footsteps isn't exactly easy as that place has been trampled by elephants.

[Marduke]

If you do have enough experience and training, you have failed to show it.

I doubt there's anything I can say to convince you I have the skills and experience necessary for vertical caving. Now I have a pretty clear picture of how to get to incredible which is what I was looking for. I don't need to convince you of anything. Have a great day.

Make sure to leave forwarding info on where to send your Darwin Award.

[NZcaver]

Hmmm. After all the disclaimers and repeated advice to be safe and connect with local experienced cavers, what more is there to say?

Should knowledgeable cavers openly share advice on rigging and routes, knowing some first timers to that cave will go exploring with or without help? Or should newcomers be arbitrarily discouraged and/or ridiculed because of their unknown experience and use of terms like "professional climber."

Tough call. Warnings may fall on deaf ears, but I doubt ridicule will help the situation.

[LukeM]

Ch33s3n1p, you are of course free to do whatever you want. I will say this though, I think it takes a far larger ego to not listen carefully to the advice of those with much greater experience.

Like I suggested before, if you had experience relevant to this trip you would probably feel inclined to mention it. So where are we going wrong in assuming you may be doing something dangerous and having concern? Plenty of people have come on these boards and detailed their level of experience along with asking for info and had a much warmer response.

[Jeff Bartlett]

One of the first things I do when I get to a drop I have never done is to look for any rope marks in the rock so I can determine the well worn rig points with the assumption that if it is well worn up top maybe the rub points below that I may not be able to see are smoother.

Because you have enough experience to know to look for that stuff. Which is pretty much the point.

I doubt there's anything I can say to convince you I have the skills and experience necessary for vertical caving.

Having the skills necessary for vertical caving, and having the experience necessary for one of the deepest pits in the country that includes a water element and has already claimed one life in recent memory... well, those are different things.

Forgive us for attempting to determine your skill level before providing information that most of us aren't comfortable giving out on the internet. You have to understand that, if something terrible happens, the people who participated in this thread are going to feel partly responsible, and some of those people are the same people who will have to come get you.

[self-deleted_user]

Ch33s3n1p, it's not a matter of ego, it's a matter of concern, and of care. No one wants to see anyone get hurt. The old addage "actions speak louder than words"...I must admit that in reading posts I myself judge people, everyone does, just how things work. And in reading your posts, coming in as a new person no one knows, asking for directions to huge pits, spelling "rappel" as "repel", and talking about climbing experience gives me the impression of someone who is very athletic and knows a lot of stuff, but doesn't seem to quite get it yet about caving. But if your words are failing you, simply spending time with other cavers and actively taking part in the community that is caving being offered to you, your abilities will quickly shine through and there won't be any troubles, and you'll make a lot of great friends and have a blast along the way!

Cavers are a great bunch of people, and very warm and welcoming - if you let them be. Being new and coming in and asking for some of the biggest pits alone gives the impression of being a "no0b" because people with the ability and knowledge to handle such are the ones who have been around. Maybe I'm speaking out of turn being new at caving myself (not quite a year yet, 43 trips so far) and even newer at vertical (first rope training last October, done 3 vertical trips) but I've found most cavers are pretty cool froods, and TAG for sure has a great concentration of amazing cavers who are just as awesome as people. So awesome, I'm working on moving down there! It's a team effort, and great friendships are made. People genuinely care about each other, and happily take newbies even weird ones from the great white North land of no-caves like me under their wings and show me the ropes (hehe). If anything, It seems often that they think I am capable of more than *I* think I am capable of. Learning is all part of the process, and no matter how much you know, there is always more to learn.

[HKalnitz]

You know what?
I have been around a bit and personally know a lot of the folks who have posted on this thread, and have caved with some of them. You are good folks.
However, I can't quite get over how you guys come arcross as santimonious, hypocritical dicks in this thread.

If I were to sum this up in one line, it would be; You can't handle this cave, I can.
We have told the OP he can't read, can't spell, or is a darwin nominee. We have sent him off to DCG which could be as full of sancimonious cavers as this group is (don't know - not a member, making a point here). Even before the end of the thread the OP has signed off, probably never to return to forum, or possibly organized caving.

Nowhere, could I find an invite - "hey, come join our grotto meeting" or even better " I am doing some training, can you join?" or even " I am heading that way, and would be happy to help you with your skills in this cave"

I know we are all in shock from the recent untrained and totally preventable death in Ellisons. And god willing it won't happen again. But I fail to see how this thread will prevent it. You have driven away a possible member and future highly skilled caver. Who knows what he may learn now, or from who. We all have the right as well trained cavers to speak to prevent tragedy, but this for sure is not the way to do it. This should not be a group full of trolls or flamers looking to criticize or sermonize.

I try to make many invites directly from postings to trainings and trips - have done it many times (even invited the caver who will be our next grotto chair right from this board!). I have found many, even those who came across bad on the forum, to be execellent grotto members, organized cavers and willing to learn.

think about what you say and how you say it (as I probably should have in this message)
Howard
NSS206787FE

[Marduke]

Howard, the OP made it quite clear he views training as a "social event" and said he wants no part of it.

[Scott McCrea]

OP,

If you are serious about being prepared for the challenges you are wanting to face, here's everything you should know to be a competent vertical caver. Do all of the things listed in the "Challenge" and you could be ready for nearly everything except rigging and route finding. I promise that if you know these skills, it will be easier to get the info you are looking for. And, it will be easier to survive in Ellison's.

[bennettbike]

Chad, thanks!
:)
So now I know the next drop after the 2nd is incredible, otherwise I may of lugged a bit more rope than needed.

It's Pretty dry in the cave right now. Wet suits are worn and It's helpful having a heads up with keeping the rope to the left side to get out the waterfall.

After this trip the crossover trip may be next.
The idea is to find the bottom of fantastic pit as we are familiar with the
Canyon at the bottom.

Thanks Chad
Adios

[bennettbike]

Scott, thanks for the link I will check out with Matt.

[Chads93GT]

Chad, thanks!
:)
So now I know the next drop after the 2nd is incredible, otherwise I may of lugged a bit more rope than needed.

It's Pretty dry in the cave right now. Wet suits are worn and It's helpful having a heads up with keeping the rope to the left side to get out the waterfall.

After this trip the crossover trip may be next.
The idea is to find the bottom of fantastic pit as we are familiar with the
Canyon at the bottom.

Thanks Chad
Adios

Well...........if the cave is dry, i wouldnt wear a wetsuit. Hell I wouldnt wear one anyway. I'd just wear a light rain coat or a trash bag.

[Ch33s3n1p]

Well...........if the cave is dry, i wouldnt wear a wetsuit. Hell I wouldnt wear one anyway. I'd just wear a light rain coat or a trash bag.

It was dry-ish. Maybe half a CFS going over the 100ft drop. BennettBike and I SCUBA dive so we already have wetsuits, they're actually pretty nice. It's like wearing kneepads all over your body.

I'm sure it will get picked apart by all the "experts" on here, but here is my rope experience (I'm leaving out the climbing part):

My climber turned caver friends will rig my 600ft rope in the basement with a second person feeding rope as somebody ascends. That way we can ascend nearly 600ft without leaving the house. The second person will simulate problems by telling the person ascending one of their ascenders has malfunctioned or they must swich over to rappelling, etc.
We practive passing knots, switching between ascending/rappelling, ascending with prusiks, etc.
We've built a 3-1 haul system and practiced actually hauling a 140lb guy out of south pittsburg (with a seperate belay).
We've practiced pick-offs at LRC.
I've been rappelling/ascending at Little River Canyon about a dozen time, dropping a few cliffs each time.
I've been down south pittsburg pit and rusty's a few times, warmup pit a few times, and fantastic twice.
I've been down the incredible entrance twice.

I'll admit I've never had any training of any kind ...and yes that scares me just as much as it scares you :)
I've never been to a grotto meeting, I've found the above metioned caves as well as some horizontal ones by scouring the internet. I probably will join a grotto because I haven't been able to find any new caves lately.

You guys are gonna go crazy with this... I am the unofficial "leader" on most of our trips. I rig the ropes, give tips and instructions, and carry extra gear in case somebody forgot something.

I hope this gives ya'll a better idea of my experience. I know I still have a lot to learn and I am actively improving.

[Chads93GT]

I know wetsuits. 99% of my trips are surveying a river cave with a pit entrance. My point is, I wouldnt ever do THAT cave with a wetsuit on. Its overkill. there is no sense hauling the extra weight up the mountain when a trash bag or similar rain jacket will do just fine. Climbing 78' soaking wet in my wetsuit after 10 hours of surveying is one thing.......climbing 700' in a wetsuit to get out of a cave that isn't even a river cave is.........well.........just dumb. I would overheat and pass out on rope, lol. I sweat like a pig though. Thats my opinion though. Use one if it makes you comfortable but ive done the wetsuit when not needed before and I will never do that again.

In my opinion, you dont need to be in a grotto to be a caver, it just helps you meet new people, new ideas, gear ideas, training tips, and knowledge on where caves are. Vertical though...........i trained myself vertical by reading a book. I didn't have money but I wanted into the pit caves. I built my first frog system then went on to build a ropewalker, but eventually I got help perfecting techniques from other vertical cavers who knew a hell of a lot more than me. Eventually I graduated from the 40-130' deep missouri pits and went to tag. My 2nd trip to tag was the ellisons crossover, but I was doing vertical cavivng almost every weekend for 2 years when that came around. That cave is serious business. A guy died in incredible pit because he didn't bring his A game, ie, he didn't have the basic skills that every vertical caver should have and in the end he couldnt save himself and neither could his friends. those huge pits, there is no communication due to echos. Its ridiculous. You need to train your ass off for those kinds of pits if you are a beginner. The cave isn't going anywhere.

[Chads93GT]

And if youve done fantastic twice, then hell man, incredible wont be a problem. It just has a lip to pass at the waterfall, after that its a free hang. Its not like fantastic where the bolts are in the ceiling above the drop. lol. I consider what you and your friends do as training. Thats how my friends and I train. We do changeovers, knot crossing, etc. You will be fine. Just leave the wetsuit at home. heat, gag!