Where is incredible pit?

[Ch33s3n1p]

Yeah you're probably right about the wetsuit, but I'm still gonna wear at least my wetsuit shorts and maybe my vest, I hate being wet and cold.

[Chads93GT]

if the rope is rigged in the right spot and you stand on the rock pile to get on rope then you wont hardly get a sprinkle. hence the rain coat/trash bag. wetsuit is way overkill if the flow is low. It was flowing ugh......20-30 gpm when I climbed it and all i wore was a plastic rain coat.

[NZcaver]

I'm sure it will get picked apart by all the "experts" on here, but here is my rope experience (I'm leaving out the climbing part):

Nice. I'm no expert on that cave, but your list seems to indicate an appropriate level of preparation. Have a safe and enjoyable trip.

[bennettbike]

I'll add to Matts resume, I watched him perform a rescue in the Little River Canyon AL.

[Bill Putnam]

You know what? I have been around a bit and personally know a lot of the folks who have posted on this thread, and have caved with some of them. You are good folks. However, I can't quite get over how you guys come arcross as santimonious, hypocritical dicks in this thread.

I have to agree with Howard here. Reading some of the replies and comments here makes me cringe. Yes, the poster and his friend are clearly novice cavers, but they do seem to have a reasonable appreciation of the risks and the technical issues, and to posses reasonable equipment and the knowledge and skill to use it (albeit from a somewhat different venue,such as industrial rope access, perhaps). Who am I to judge them safe or unsafe? I know nothing about them except the little I have read here. And yes, some of their posts to seem to have a bit of attitude - a little bit of a chip on the shoulder maybe, perhaps the result of some previous run-in with a self-righteous NSS Cave Nazi or whatever. They do exist - we all know a few, and they can be dicks. I had some run-ins with a few of them myself when I was a n00b back in the day.

And though I have been a DCG member for 31 years, I freely admit that it is not always the friendliest and most welcoming group for new cavers. It's a big group, with a number of active sub-groups, and it can be difficult to get integrated and accepted. Best way to do it is to go caving together, of course, and fortunately the club has a lot of trips pretty much all the time. And some of us are open to new people and love to have them along.

I'll tell you what guys - Ellisons is my favorite cave, and I know as much about it as almost anybody, having studied it and mapped a sizable portion of it and having been there more times than I can count in my 30 years of caving. Email me off list and I'll be glad to answer your questions. If I'm in town and available when you're going, I may well come along with you, as I love doing the trip. You'll be hard pressed to find the way through the bottom without a guide though, even with a map. I've been through it dozens of times, and I still make a wrong turn now and then. I can get you through and back, but no promises on how long it'll take! ;-)

Sometimes there are trail markers, but they are often wrong, and some of us remove them as a matter of principle (they dumb down the caving experience and pollute the cave). So you can't count on any markers or whatever, and the map is not quite detailed enough to be really useful as a route-finding guide, though if you have a compass and the map you can eventually figure out most of the junctions and connections (or at least avoid getting totally lost). But it's all about having fun exploring the cave, right? It's not supposed to be easy, or everybody would be in there doing it!

Drop me a note at woputnam@gmail.com and I'll do what I can to help.

Safe caving,
Bill Putnam

[Bill Putnam]

Got to agree with Chad about the wetsuits - if you rig correctly (all the way to the side, away from the point where the water goes over, and each climber is careful to put the rope back in that spot) you don't need a wetsuit. I have done it with one in high water with the rope rigged in the waterfall and I was still hot during the climb. Last time I wore a trashbag over polypro and was fine, even though the climber ahead of me left the rope partly in the water. So if you are doing the pit right after a big rain (and I advise against that) wear a wetsuit. Otherwise, take a raincoat or trashbag and rig carefully to minimize the water.

[Chads93GT]

even though the climber ahead of me left the rope partly in the water.

You mean the climber ahead of the climber ahead of you! lol. I was the climber ahead of you and I crossed the lip with the rope at the same spot you did! (mainly because you were 150 feet below me and for the life of me I couldnt lift thee 50-60 lb water saturated rope and you at the same time, lol) Blame those other guys! I do! haha

[Ch33s3n1p]

I'll add to Matts resume, I watched him perform a rescue in the Little River Canyon AL.

Thanks Max, but I don't think I should brag about bringing a beginner and then having to "rescue" her :P. FYI Bennettbike's wife was practicing ascending at a 50ft cliff at LRC and she couldn't negotiate some rocks near the lip. So I rappelled a few feet past the lip and pulled her rope away from the rock while she was ascending. LRC has some nasty lips, the worst I can think of is that really overhung 130' one that has an opposing cliff about 300 yards away, great for taking pictures if you have a powerful zoom.

Thanks for the invite Bill, I'm always up for going to Ellisons.

[bronzzhorse]

You know what?
I have been around a bit and personally know a lot of the folks who have posted on this thread, and have caved with some of them. You are good folks.
However, I can't quite get over how you guys come arcross as santimonious, hypocritical dicks in this thread.

If I were to sum this up in one line, it would be; You can't handle this cave, I can.
We have told the OP he can't read, can't spell, or is a darwin nominee. We have sent him off to DCG which could be as full of sancimonious cavers as this group is (don't know - not a member, making a point here). Even before the end of the thread the OP has signed off, probably never to return to forum, or possibly organized caving.

Nowhere, could I find an invite - "hey, come join our grotto meeting" or even better " I am doing some training, can you join?" or even " I am heading that way, and would be happy to help you with your skills in this cave"

I know we are all in shock from the recent untrained and totally preventable death in Ellisons. And god willing it won't happen again. But I fail to see how this thread will prevent it. You have driven away a possible member and future highly skilled caver. Who knows what he may learn now, or from who. We all have the right as well trained cavers to speak to prevent tragedy, but this for sure is not the way to do it. This should not be a group full of trolls or flamers looking to criticize or sermonize.

I try to make many invites directly from postings to trainings and trips - have done it many times (even invited the caver who will be our next grotto chair right from this board!). I have found many, even those who came across bad on the forum, to be execellent grotto members, organized cavers and willing to learn.

think about what you say and how you say it (as I probably should have in this message)
Howard
NSS206787FE

Agreed!! ESPECIALLY this part....

If I were to sum this up in one line, it would be; You can't handle this cave, I can.

[bronzzhorse]

I also can't help but thinking to myself that OP is going to do this cave, and the drop, regardless how many ways or times folks here tell him he "shouldnt" or "cant" (which no-one here has any right whatsoever to judge)..... so if something happens and OP or someone in his group is injured, even after he has asked many ways and times for any helpfull information, and has been flat out denied, then arent we just as much to blame? I know the rope length issue has been resolved, but speaking strictly hypothetically here, what if he had asked about the rope length needed and nobody had told him, then he rigged too short of a rope and got injured as a result.....whos fault is that??? Yes, I agree it's his for going unprepared, but he did ask the correct questions to help himself be prepared as prepared as possible, and everyone (exept a few sane minded people) simply refused to answer him, based on his "lack of experience" (of which not one person here has any idea how much he has)...... and so far thats all i have seen... he has asked pertenant questions, in the hopes of being as prepared as possible, and all he has gotten so far is "it doesnt matter who you are or what you know or what gear you have, we arent telling you squat, cause you arent ready for this cave yet kiddo"..In my mind that puts almost as much if not as much of the blame on those that refused to offer any helpfull, and possibly life saving information.. Now I know cavers are "clique-ish" people, but this has just gotten plum damn rediculous...... Not telling someone where a cave is is one thing, but refusing to give any safety info about a cave he already knows about??!!!! C'mon people.. get real!!

Ch33s3n1p, don't feel bad man.... I have been the target of a lot of this same "we dont know you " and the "we arent telling you NOTHING" treatment on here myself.... some of the folks on here can be super cool, but there are ALWAYS those that feel like they are higher and mightier than we ever will be!!!

"Just call the man Aunt Bea"

[bronzzhorse]

And yes, some of their posts to seem to have a bit of attitude - a little bit of a chip on the shoulder

Bill,excluding yourself, and one or two others (Chad, NZ, good looking out guys!) who have actually been CIVIL towards the OP, I'm thinking it could be the result of the way he was treated by the "Cave Nazi's" HERE as well.....way to go guys!!! You should all pat yourselves on the back!!!

[Chads93GT]

And yes, some of their posts to seem to have a bit of attitude - a little bit of a chip on the shoulder

Bill,excluding yourself, and one or two others (Chad, NZ, good looking out guys!) who have actually been CIVIL towards the OP, I'm thinking it could be the result of the way he was treated by the "Cave Nazi's" HERE as well.....way to go guys!!! You should all pat yourselves on the back!!!

I figured.......... I wouldn't have seen that cave if it weren't for someone taking a group of people who hadn't done a big drop like that (always a first time right?) Besides myself, our of our group there was 1 other gal on the trip who hadn't done a big drop. My biggest was Mystery falls and I wasn't ready, nor did I know what the rope weight factor was going to be like. But our leader took us anyway. The gal was even short roped and had to climb back up fantastic pit, only to go back down and do the crossover. (our 600' rope shrank a lot, lol)

Point being, you can either be helpful or not. I choose to return the favor that was granted to me in such an amazing cave.

By the way, that guy who took the deeeep vertical noobs (including myself) in on the crossover trip was Bill Putnam.

[bronzzhorse]

Scott, not to pick, but you send him a link to BASIC vertical site, and then tell him if he "knows all that he will be fine"... its OBVIOUS he knows the basics, or he wouldnt still be alive after the trips he has already told us about (LRC, pick-offs, so-on).....If BASIC vertical is enough for the drop in question, then WHAT, may I ask, is the big deal... once you get over 30+ or so feet up, if you fall, dead is DEAD. This seems to me to be less of a "lack of experience" issue and more of an "I dont want you in my cave" issue, ESPECIALLY with the "earn access to that cave" comment... Who is the judge that decides when someone has "earned" a trip to Ellisons... is there a "ready for big drops commossion" that i don't know about??? Point is, the cave is there, was before you or ANY of those that "earned it" came into it, and will be after you or anyone else make your last trip to it.... nobody has to "earn" the right to enter a cave!

[bronzzhorse]

And yes, some of their posts to seem to have a bit of attitude - a little bit of a chip on the shoulder

Bill,excluding yourself, and one or two others (Chad, NZ, good looking out guys!) who have actually been CIVIL towards the OP, I'm thinking it could be the result of the way he was treated by the "Cave Nazi's" HERE as well.....way to go guys!!! You should all pat yourselves on the back!!!

I figured.......... I wouldn't have seen that cave if it weren't for someone taking a group of people who hadn't done a big drop like that (always a first time right?) Besides myself, our of our group there was 1 other gal on the trip who hadn't done a big drop. My biggest was Mystery falls and I wasn't ready, nor did I know what the rope weight factor was going to be like. But our leader took us anyway. The gal was even short roped and had to climb back up fantastic pit, only to go back down and do the crossover. (our 600' rope shrank a lot, lol)

Point being, you can either be helpful or not. I choose to return the favor that was granted to me in such an amazing cave.

By the way, that guy who took the deeeep vertical noobs (including myself) in on the crossover trip was Bill Putnam.

Good looking out Chad..... thats what i was getting at.... EVERYONE needs a little help with this stuff now and then, and there is NO point in the cave Nazi's making decisions for other ppl!!..... I say when it comes to noobs, SHARE SHARE SHARE... they can only become better, safer, and more respnsable cavers from it!!!!
And Bill, you ROCK man..... !!! no pun intended !!!

[Extremeophile]

That's quite a rant Josh. While I agree that some of the posts contain a tone of condescension, it's hard to read someone's tone in text.

I was led through Ellisons back in the 90's by a Georgia Tech caver by the name of Mark. I wish I could recall his last name, but I know he was friends with Bill and we all caved together a couple times at Mammoth Cave. I considered myself pretty accomplished at SRT, but I'm very grateful for being led through Ellisons the first time. I can't really imagine doing it efficiently, or safely without someone familiar with the route, rigging and hazards. Describing these issues on an internet forum isn't a good substitute. I think doing a self-led trip there significantly increases the risks. If you think anyone capable of climbing 30 ft on rope has the skills and experience to do any vertical trip then you are mistaken. I agree that the OP does appear to have the SRT skills to do a trip here, but this was not apparent early in the thread. I don't think the caving community should blindly encourage anyone asking for information to go explore the most technically difficult caves without understanding their credentials. You seem to be endorsing the policy that everyone should share everything they know without stipulations, and that otherwise they are being an elitist jerk. I think the intentions of everyone who has posted here is that anyone with the desire to explore Ellisons can do so, but that they would do themselves and the caving community a service by having the skills and experience to do it safely.