Where is incredible pit?

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Re: Where is incredible pit?

Postby Scott McCrea » Jun 10, 2011 3:19 pm

bronzzhorse wrote:Scott, not to pick, but you send him a link to BASIC vertical site, and then tell him if he "knows all that he will be fine"...

Actually, what I said was, "Do all of the things listed in the "Challenge" and you could be ready for nearly everything." Yes, the skills are very basic and every vertical caver should know how to do them easily and quickly. Yet, lots of experienced (very experienced) cavers can not. How have they survived? Probably luck and being with people that kept them out of trouble.

Who is the judge that decides when someone has "earned" a trip to Ellisons...

Mother Nature is the judge and jury.

nobody has to "earn" the right to enter a cave!

True. But, you do have to earn an invitation to go back. Mother Nature keeps a pretty close eye on Ellison's and she can be a stickler with her invitations.

I did not feel comfortable telling the guys to have it. If they go with Bill Putnam or someone else that has earned many return invitations, then, go for it. They'll have a blast!

Am I cave nazi? Nah. Am I a safety nazi? You're damn right. I will do everything in my power to help someone earn a chance to go back.
Scott McCrea
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Re: Where is incredible pit?

Postby Chads93GT » Jun 10, 2011 6:22 pm

Extremeophile wrote: I can't really imagine doing it efficiently, or safely without someone familiar with the route, rigging and hazards. Describing these issues on an internet forum isn't a good substitute. I think doing a self-led trip there significantly increases the risks.


I personally disagree with this premise. What is wrong with doing a self led trip into any cave? It is no more dangerous than it was for the people who first found the cave and unlocked all of its secrets. Half the fun of going caving is not being given a huge map and blindly following directions, flagging, cairn's, etc. Granted, some caves respond differently to weather and only ssomeone who is experienced with the cave is going to know exactly what happens in the caves when the weather goes bad, and that can lead to situations if the people who go are blatanly ignorant, and if that is the case, then there is no help ;)
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Re: Where is incredible pit?

Postby Extremeophile » Jun 10, 2011 6:30 pm

Chads93GT wrote:
Extremeophile wrote: I can't really imagine doing it efficiently, or safely without someone familiar with the route, rigging and hazards. Describing these issues on an internet forum isn't a good substitute. I think doing a self-led trip there significantly increases the risks.


I personally disagree with this premise. What is wrong with doing a self led trip into any cave? It is no more dangerous than it was for the people who first found the cave and unlocked all of its secrets. Half the fun of going caving is not being given a huge map and blindly following directions, flagging, cairn's, etc. Granted, some caves respond differently to weather and only ssomeone who is experienced with the cave is going to know exactly what happens in the caves when the weather goes bad, and that can lead to situations if the people who go are blatanly ignorant, and if that is the case, then there is no help ;)

I might take back the statement that it can't be done safely, but certainly you must agree that exploring Ellisons with someone familiar with the cave reduces the risks. Sure there's more adventure the less information you have, but if that's their goal then why ask for any information at all? I do self-led trips to caves I've never been to all the time, and I like the challenge. Ellisons is a prime example of a cave where I would not do this... at least if my interest was completing a through trip or at least going from F to I or I to F.
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Re: Where is incredible pit?

Postby Chads93GT » Jun 10, 2011 7:12 pm

No I agree, having someone who knows the cave reduces the risk. Speaking from my own experience, we learn our virgin caves because we survey them as we go, and we wiill never get lost becuase of that. Someone wandering into some caves will get extremely lost becuase they are site seeing and not paying attention, at least not everyone is paying the same degree of attention, that is for sure. It will definately reduce that risk but some people get off by just going in, exploring for themselves, paying attention and getting back out.

I cant see anyone making it through ellisons on a crossover trip without a guide. That cave is multilevels and its easy to get lost. Like bill said, he's been in there tons of times and he still will lose the route since he's not in there all the time anymore. Granted you could probably follow the elephant tracks and eventually find it, but damn, you could be in there for days. ITs definately not a straight through shot and thinking its an easy trip is just silly. I tried to retrace the route from fantastic to incredible in january, and we were in there in september. I got lost and found the south pole instead. WE were actually trying to find the south pole but..........we inadvertantly found it. A guide in there is definately best. expecially if you have a goal. If you goal is to just go in the cave, find the drops if you can (who the hell would lug a 600' rope up that mountain and not know where they are going lol) and just explore a little, then I see no use for a guide that knows the route. Just drop the pits and have fun, but pay attention.
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Re: Where is incredible pit?

Postby Cody JW » Jun 10, 2011 9:02 pm

Bill Putnam wrote:
HKalnitz wrote:You know what? I have been around a bit and personally know a lot of the folks who have posted on this thread, and have caved with some of them. You are good folks. However, I can't quite get over how you guys come arcross as santimonious, hypocritical dicks in this thread.

I have to agree with Howard here. Reading some of the replies and comments here makes me cringe. Yes, the poster and his friend are clearly novice cavers, but they do seem to have a reasonable appreciation of the risks and the technical issues, and to posses reasonable equipment and the knowledge and skill to use it (albeit from a somewhat different venue,such as industrial rope access, perhaps). Who am I to judge them safe or unsafe? I know nothing about them except the little I have read here. And yes, some of their posts to seem to have a bit of attitude - a little bit of a chip on the shoulder maybe, perhaps the result of some previous run-in with a self-righteous NSS Cave Nazi or whatever. They do exist - we all know a few, and they can be dicks. I had some run-ins with a few of them myself when I was a n00b back in the day.

And though I have been a DCG member for 31 years, I freely admit that it is not always the friendliest and most welcoming group for new cavers. It's a big group, with a number of active sub-groups, and it can be difficult to get integrated and accepted. Best way to do it is to go caving together, of course, and fortunately the club has a lot of trips pretty much all the time. And some of us are open to new people and love to have them along.

I'll tell you what guys - Ellisons is my favorite cave, and I know as much about it as almost anybody, having studied it and mapped a sizable portion of it and having been there more times than I can count in my 30 years of caving. Email me off list and I'll be glad to answer your questions. If I'm in town and available when you're going, I may well come along with you, as I love doing the trip. You'll be hard pressed to find the way through the bottom without a guide though, even with a map. I've been through it dozens of times, and I still make a wrong turn now and then. I can get you through and back, but no promises on how long it'll take! ;-)

Sometimes there are trail markers, but they are often wrong, and some of us remove them as a matter of principle (they dumb down the caving experience and pollute the cave). So you can't count on any markers or whatever, and the map is not quite detailed enough to be really useful as a route-finding guide, though if you have a compass and the map you can eventually figure out most of the junctions and connections (or at least avoid getting totally lost). But it's all about having fun exploring the cave, right? It's not supposed to be easy, or everybody would be in there doing it! :-)

Drop me a note at woputnam@gmail.com and I'll do what I can to help.

Safe caving,
Bill Putnam

You guys should take Bill up on his offer, he is a well known and respected caver. I have never been caving with him but I am aware of his "credentials" and suspect anyone would be in good hands with him. I have been to Ellisons a few times but never a through trip and I know better than to attempt it on my own, even with 30 years of caving under my belt. Kudos to you Bill for your offer, I hope they take you up on it.
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