Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Discuss training events, techniques, equipment, safety and related issues. Click here to visit the National Cave Rescue Commission webpage.

Moderator: Tim White

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Caverdale » Aug 23, 2010 3:16 pm

Thanks, Andy. I had my hearing aids turned all the way up, which slightly distorts. When Ryan said "telephone" I heard "cell phone", figuring there was no other type of phone that could be handed to John. No mention of the telecom. I am positive that Ryan said a piece of webbing broke, that no part of the rock broke, and the bolt was still there. Of course, considering Ryan's condition at the time he was probably honestly mistaken. I'm also positive the sheriff said the rock shattered and pulled the bolt out. It's good to get that part straight.
Dale Green
NSS 3669FE
Caverdale
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 219
Joined: Sep 4, 2005 10:49 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Name: Dale Green
NSS #: 3669FE, LB
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Salt Lake Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby NZcaver » Aug 23, 2010 4:12 pm

Andy and Dale - thanks for taking the time to share your insights.

I read the Tribune article and was also impressed by what seems to be pretty thorough reporting.

I think I would need to see a schematic diagram of the pulley/redirect haul setup to fully understand what was going on there. I'm wondering how much force was applied to the 11mm rope used to anchor to the sharp jug handle. I'm also wondering exactly what a "telecom" is, in the context used in the article. I've never heard of a piece of equipment or a comms system being referred to that way. I'm guessing a wired intercom using a microphone/speaker combination? Or did the media just come up with another name for field telephones?

Interesting too that 2-way (VHF?) radios actually worked 150 feet underground. Was that 150 feet in, or 150 below the surface (indicating depth of overburden)? Karst can sometimes be more radio-transparent than we'd normally expect, especially in drier regions.
User avatar
NZcaver
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 6353
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 2:05 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Name: Jansen
NSS #: 50665RL
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Stridergdm » Aug 23, 2010 4:14 pm

Caverdale wrote:Thanks, Andy. I had my hearing aids turned all the way up, which slightly distorts. When Ryan said "telephone" I heard "cell phone", figuring there was no other type of phone that could be handed to John. No mention of the telecom. I am positive that Ryan said a piece of webbing broke, that no part of the rock broke, and the bolt was still there. Of course, considering Ryan's condition at the time he was probably honestly mistaken. I'm also positive the sheriff said the rock shattered and pulled the bolt out. It's good to get that part straight.


I don't know what was used in this case, but generally "army" telephones with wire strung are often used in cave rescues.
Cavers rescue cavers!
User avatar
Stridergdm
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Nov 1, 2005 10:08 am
Location: Capital District NY and Northern Virginia
Name: Greg Moore
Primary Grotto Affiliation: RPI Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Aug 23, 2010 4:48 pm

Yeah the rigging failure is still one of the hardest things to get good info on. I was under the impression that the rock broke until I went caving with Dave Shurtz back in March or so. He told me about the rope getting cut then. It is ironic, because rope failure is what was originally reported on TV. However, the news was talking about main line failure, which certainly did not happen. The rigging failure was essentially a communication failure. Those designing and modifying the haul system did not know the condition of this anchor. All the other ones had been replaced with bolts, this one was assumed to be a bolt as well, at least by me. I never made it that close to John.

NZ,
Too bad you don't have a hard copy of the Tribune, there is actually a pretty decent schematic in the article. There is a link to it here: http://extras.sltrib.com/NuttyPuttyCaveDiagramday2.pdf
Unlike what you'll see here, the passage continues beyond John, and the redirect in question is shown wrong. The main line did not go through the jug handle. How much force was applied to it? Lots. Enough to cut an 11mm rope in half on a pointy rock.
NZcaver wrote:I'm also wondering exactly what a "telecom" is, in the context used in the article. I've never heard of a piece of equipment or a comms system being referred to that way. I'm guessing a wired intercom using a microphone/speaker combination?

That is exactly what it is. Like having a really loud, sensitive, speakerphone to the outside world. During the rescue the fire and police teams called it a "squawk box". One aspect of the rescue that was nerve-wracking was having all the loud communication over radios and a squawk box in the small passage. At one point, someone on the surface gave us a message to deliver to the guy at the end of the squawk box (also on the surface). It was a bizarre, disorganized day.

I do not know what frequency the radios used, standard police/fire radios I assume. Sorry, not much of a techno-caver. It was both about 150 feet in, and about 150 feet of overburden. I guess I don't know whether the radio signal was transmitted through the rock or through the cave passage.

Stridergdm wrote:I don't know what was used in this case, but generally "army" telephones with wire strung are often used in cave rescues.


Now this is funny, and made my day in fact. The fact that you are explaining this to NZ proves that you have never met him! :big grin:
Andy Armstrong
American Carbide Council
User avatar
Anonymous_Coward
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 893
Joined: Feb 3, 2006 1:40 pm
Location: Inside the Beehive
NSS #: 45993RL FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Paha Sapa Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby DansRock » Aug 23, 2010 4:55 pm

I thought the article was very good as well. I do wish all the rescuers who were at John would take advantage of PTSD therapy. If the article and the comments here from those on the scene are accurate, John was never coming out of that situation alive. To watch that unfold and then have to leave the body behind must be hard to carry around. I encourage those of you who know these folks to keep on them to get the therapy.

Does anyone know if there's anything to the part of the article where it suggests John thought he was pushing the Birth Canal? According to Dale's and Brandon K's maps these areas are separated by some distance.
DansRock
Infrequent Poster
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Jan 4, 2010 12:24 am
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby NZcaver » Aug 23, 2010 5:12 pm

Andy, thanks for the link and the explanation.

I know that device as a squawk box, but hadn't heard it referred to as a "telecom" before.

jaa45993 wrote:
Stridergdm wrote:I don't know what was used in this case, but generally "army" telephones with wire strung are often used in cave rescues.


Now this is funny, and made my day in fact. The fact that you are explaining this to NZ proves that you have never met him! :big grin:

Now your response is even funnier! Striderdgm is Greg, who went through the same NCRC level 1, 2 and 3 classes with me and is now also an instructor. I assume he was helping to enlighten somebody else as we made our previous posts almost simultaneously, plus he knows damn well that I wrote the cave rescue comms curriculum (in my sleep). :laughing:
User avatar
NZcaver
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 6353
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 2:05 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Name: Jansen
NSS #: 50665RL
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Aug 23, 2010 5:17 pm

OK, I see now he was explaining it to Dale. Still, I got a good laugh out of it.
Andy Armstrong
American Carbide Council
User avatar
Anonymous_Coward
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 893
Joined: Feb 3, 2006 1:40 pm
Location: Inside the Beehive
NSS #: 45993RL FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Paha Sapa Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Stridergdm » Aug 23, 2010 6:39 pm

jaa45993 wrote:OK, I see now he was explaining it to Dale. Still, I got a good laugh out of it.

Glad I could provide a good laugh. :-) Yeah, I suspect NZ knows a bit about communication.

As for meeting him.. definitely even if he won't ever stop by my place in NY. Lord knows he's been to about every other state in the Union. :-)
Cavers rescue cavers!
User avatar
Stridergdm
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Nov 1, 2005 10:08 am
Location: Capital District NY and Northern Virginia
Name: Greg Moore
Primary Grotto Affiliation: RPI Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Stridergdm » Aug 23, 2010 7:25 pm

On a more serious note, Andy, thank you for taking the time and effort both during the initial effort and in your posts here.

As a person who was deeply involved, I think your insights and thoughts are far more valuable than us bystanders. Again, thanks for setting the record straight.
Cavers rescue cavers!
User avatar
Stridergdm
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Nov 1, 2005 10:08 am
Location: Capital District NY and Northern Virginia
Name: Greg Moore
Primary Grotto Affiliation: RPI Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Leitmotiv » Aug 23, 2010 8:47 pm

So John was completely upside down? Like that schematic shows? I was always under the impression he was at a 45 degree angle or maybe 60 degrees.

Looking at the schematic, it's easy to see why someone could drop down feet first, and the switch to crawling head first to get into the beginning part of that tight area. It wouldn't seem natural to go feet first when you have to flip upside down to do so. Got to watch out for that.
Leitmotiv
Prolific Poster
 
Posts: 164
Joined: May 17, 2006 4:39 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon
Name: Matt Skeels
NSS #: 53428
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Oregon High Desert Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby JR-Orion » Aug 24, 2010 11:55 am

Between posts here, the article, and that pdf diagram, I now feel like I have an idea of what happened down there. So thanks everyone.

I will definitely keep this in mind when I'm out caving.

What a scary, horrible passage. A tight area can be bad enough, but tight and twisty and up and down, wow.
Letting the days go by / water flowing underground
Into the blue again / in the silent water
Under the rocks and stones / there is water underground.
User avatar
JR-Orion
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 482
Joined: Aug 28, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Illinois
Name: Jasen Rogers
NSS #: 61613
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Iowa Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Scott McCrea » Aug 24, 2010 12:35 pm

Did anyone snatch this PDF? I missed it and it appears to be gone. The link in the left side-bar did not work.
Scott McCrea
SWAYGO
User avatar
Scott McCrea
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 3:07 pm
Location: Asheville, NC USA
NSS #: 40839RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Flittermouse Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Aug 24, 2010 12:40 pm

Scott McCrea wrote:Did anyone snatch this PDF? I missed it and it appears to be gone. The link in the left side-bar did not work.


Try this one Scott: http://extras.sltrib.com/NuttyPuttyCaveDiagramday2.pdf
Andy Armstrong
American Carbide Council
User avatar
Anonymous_Coward
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 893
Joined: Feb 3, 2006 1:40 pm
Location: Inside the Beehive
NSS #: 45993RL FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Paha Sapa Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Chads93GT » Aug 24, 2010 12:43 pm

I actually still have it loaded, and I am saving it now...........
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2294
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Scott McCrea » Aug 24, 2010 12:57 pm

I got it, thanks!

The more I learn about this, the more respect I have for the rescue crew. That looks like some tough passage.
Scott McCrea
SWAYGO
User avatar
Scott McCrea
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 3:07 pm
Location: Asheville, NC USA
NSS #: 40839RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Flittermouse Grotto
  

PreviousNext

Return to Cave Rescue Techniques Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users