Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Discuss training events, techniques, equipment, safety and related issues. Click here to visit the National Cave Rescue Commission webpage.

Moderator: Tim White

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Ralph E. Powers » Jan 5, 2010 12:48 pm

NZcaver wrote:I have to admit I've found many Darwin Award stories quite entertaining. Some of that stuff you couldn't make up if you tried.

Aye, I also found myself giggling when reading this site, lots of videos on the net are showing the proof of the site's necessity. Lot of people doing a LOT of STOOPID stuff out there.

Still... the site has this to say...
SIDEBAR: "Although many people enjoy this pursuit safely, the National Speleological Society warns that the dangers of spelunking include falling down pits, being crushed by rocks, drowning, hypothermia, and slowly starving to death. They add that 'the rewards are worth the misery and risks.'"

Now I dunno about the "slowly starving to death... hypothermia will kill you before hunger and dehydration will. Still I agree the rewards are worth the misery and risks and Dale's quote (on the site) is right on as well. It's as safe as you make it. 30+ years of caving and I've yet to be rescued on a major call out... self rescued yes of course but having teams of rescuers come out to where I'm at... nope. So either way... I agree that Jones' entry here doesn't qualify under their criteria.
Without the possibility of death, adventure is not possible. ~ Reinhold Messner


http://ralph.rigidtech.com/albums.php
User avatar
Ralph E. Powers
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2101
Joined: Sep 10, 2005 5:48 pm
Location: Chattanooga, TN
NSS #: 37616
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Chads93GT » Jan 5, 2010 1:03 pm

couldn't you slowly starve to death if you get lost in a dry cave, and i mean lost by someone going in alone, inexperienced, light failure, etc, etc. but then again, i guess dehydration would get you first unless you found water in the dark.......
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2294
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Ralph E. Powers » Jan 5, 2010 1:07 pm

Chads93GT wrote:couldn't you slowly starve to death if you get lost in a dry cave, and i mean lost by someone going in alone, inexperienced, light failure, etc, etc. but then again, i guess dehydration would get you first unless you found water in the dark.......

Nutty Putty was at best roughly 74 degrees... that's still cooler than your body's temperature ... I've spent hours in there (some of it surveying) and yeah you'd cool off once the sweat dries off your body, granted hypothermia would set in s-l-o-w-l-y in that particular cave but it'd still be faster than starvation and dehydration I would think.
Without the possibility of death, adventure is not possible. ~ Reinhold Messner


http://ralph.rigidtech.com/albums.php
User avatar
Ralph E. Powers
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2101
Joined: Sep 10, 2005 5:48 pm
Location: Chattanooga, TN
NSS #: 37616
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Chads93GT » Jan 5, 2010 1:35 pm

Alright time to school me. I know this is off topic but is it due to your direct contact with the rock that would cause hypothermia? Afterall, if you were lost in the woods and it was 74 degrees for a week straight (lets assume no rain) you wouldnt get hypothermia, would you? is it just due to the direct exposure to the rock that would cause this in any cave? Afterall, we live in environmen ts that are always lower than our body temperatures, just curious as to how hypothermia actually sets in in these kinds of sutiations.
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2294
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Jan 5, 2010 1:55 pm

Chads93GT wrote: if you were lost in the woods and it was 74 degrees for a week straight (lets assume no rain) you wouldnt get hypothermia, would you?


I think you would.

If you were at 74 degrees and unable to move to burn energy, or take in more energy (by eating), I would think that the temperature would get you eventually, whether in a cave or in the outside air. I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, so I am open to correction on this one.
Andy Armstrong
American Carbide Council
User avatar
Anonymous_Coward
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 893
Joined: Feb 3, 2006 1:40 pm
Location: Inside the Beehive
NSS #: 45993RL FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Paha Sapa Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby DansRock » Jan 5, 2010 3:25 pm

Does anyone know of any pictures of Ed's Push? I've seen plenty of Bob's Push, Birth canal, etc. but nothing of the other section.

Yes, I read somewhere that contact with cave walls will lead to hypothermia quicker than via a cave's ambient temperature. Not sure if the cave walls in Nutty Putty would be a problem; aren't they more clay than stone?
DansRock
Infrequent Poster
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Jan 4, 2010 12:24 am
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Stridergdm » Jan 6, 2010 7:41 am

DansRock wrote:Thanks Dale. I had a feeling it would be awhile until it's released. I'm new to caving with some cousins and we followed this story very closely as it unrolled to its tragic conclusion. A lot of our spouses want us to find a safer hobby and we hope the report can answer a lot of the questions we've been getting.


In general, caving is a very safe sport. To put it in perspective, consider that incidents like this make the news since they are so rare.

I can't say with authority, but I'm fairly confident that you're probably more likely to be in a car accident returning from your caving trip than you are to have one while actually caving.
Cavers rescue cavers!
User avatar
Stridergdm
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 929
Joined: Nov 1, 2005 10:08 am
Location: Capital District NY and Northern Virginia
Name: Greg Moore
Primary Grotto Affiliation: RPI Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Stridergdm » Jan 6, 2010 7:45 am

jaa45993 wrote:
Chads93GT wrote: if you were lost in the woods and it was 74 degrees for a week straight (lets assume no rain) you wouldnt get hypothermia, would you?


I think you would.

If you were at 74 degrees and unable to move to burn energy, or take in more energy (by eating), I would think that the temperature would get you eventually, whether in a cave or in the outside air. I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, so I am open to correction on this one.


74 in the woods is probably "ok" but as Andy points out it depends on a lot of factors. For the record I've treated far more cases of mild hypothermia in above freezing weather than I have for below freezing weather.

But yes, one of the very real dangers with entrapment is that the rock/mud/etc will carry heat away faster than air and that you can't move to generate additional heat.
Cavers rescue cavers!
User avatar
Stridergdm
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 929
Joined: Nov 1, 2005 10:08 am
Location: Capital District NY and Northern Virginia
Name: Greg Moore
Primary Grotto Affiliation: RPI Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby cavedoc » Jan 6, 2010 1:18 pm

Stridergdm wrote:But yes, one of the very real dangers with entrapment is that the rock/mud/etc will carry heat away faster than air and that you can't move to generate additional heat.


Yup. Air can hold very little heat. So it doesn't take much to warm it up to body temperature. So at 74 degrees in the air, a light Tshirt and a saunter will keep you very comfortable. A long sleeve shirt and a saunter might even make you sweat. Rock and water, or various combinations like mud, can hold a lot more heat so you have to give and give before warming that rock. And given that the rock is attached to more rock which is attached to more rock, you can't give enough to completely warm it. Think of the feeling of 74 degree air which is very pleasant vs swimming in a 74 degree pool, which is very doable but on the cool side.

Another way to think of it is to look at a corollary. Rock/water can hold more heat too. If you pull a frozen steak out of the freezer at 5:00 p.m., will you have a better chance of having it thawed by dinner time if you put it in 74 degree air or 74 degree water? Air will chill quickly to steak temperature and end up insulating it unless it is changed out (convection). Water will get colder too but not nearly as much. As it contains much more heat (or energy if you prefer) it will maintain a temperature gradiant for much longer and be able to thaw that steak faster.

So standing in a 74 degree cave will seem warm since you'll warm the air your suit/clothes quickly and it will stay that way as you move around. Trapped in a crevice or tube, you have lots of surface area to transfer heat to the rock, you are surrounded by a substance that can absorb a LOT of heat and will not rise to body temperature, and you are held immobile so cannot regenerate the heat that you lose for long. A recipe for disaster all the way around.
Roger Mortimer
User avatar
cavedoc
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 3:30 pm
Location: Fresno, CA
Name: Roger Mortimer
NSS #: 26529
Primary Grotto Affiliation: San Joaquin Valley Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby ron_miller » Feb 4, 2010 3:18 pm

Has the Utah County Sheriff released their report yet?
ron_miller
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 235
Joined: Jan 5, 2007 6:24 pm
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Caverdale » Feb 4, 2010 4:06 pm

ron_miller wrote:Has the Utah County Sheriff released their report yet?

Not yet, as far as I am aware. Some talk I have heard says that it will not be made public, but with no explanation as to why. I will keep working on finding out and will post any new information.
Dale Green
NSS 3669FE
Caverdale
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 219
Joined: Sep 4, 2005 10:49 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Name: Dale Green
NSS #: 3669FE, LB
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Salt Lake Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Stridergdm » Feb 4, 2010 11:20 pm

Caverdale wrote:
ron_miller wrote:Has the Utah County Sheriff released their report yet?

Not yet, as far as I am aware. Some talk I have heard says that it will not be made public, but with no explanation as to why. I will keep working on finding out and will post any new information.

I would hope that's not the case. And unless there's legal action pending I'd be surprised if that's strictly legal. I can understand wanting to protect people's privacy, but otherwise, I can't see much purpose.

I know there's a number of people interested in reading the report in order to learn from it and apply any lessons possible to future incidents.
Cavers rescue cavers!
User avatar
Stridergdm
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 929
Joined: Nov 1, 2005 10:08 am
Location: Capital District NY and Northern Virginia
Name: Greg Moore
Primary Grotto Affiliation: RPI Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Caverdale » Feb 4, 2010 11:48 pm

Stridergdm wrote:
Caverdale wrote:
ron_miller wrote:Has the Utah County Sheriff released their report yet?

Not yet, as far as I am aware. Some talk I have heard says that it will not be made public, but with no explanation as to why. I will keep working on finding out and will post any new information.

I would hope that's not the case. And unless there's legal action pending I'd be surprised if that's strictly legal. I can understand wanting to protect people's privacy, but otherwise, I can't see much purpose.

I know there's a number of people interested in reading the report in order to learn from it and apply any lessons possible to future incidents.

Regardless of what the Sheriff's office makes public, I am aware that some reports have been/will be submitted to the NSS American Caving Accidents editor by caver/s who were directly at the face of the rescue . They will probably be as accurate as what the Sheriff will write, maybe more so. These should contain everything cavers need to know to profit from the experience, although there could be a few years before publication.

From a few conversations with those involved, out of respect for John Jones' family there were some things that happened down there that will never be published, legal action or no, and getting those details right with the family may be the cause for delay. I will not engage you in a discussion about this.
Dale Green
NSS 3669FE
Caverdale
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 219
Joined: Sep 4, 2005 10:49 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Name: Dale Green
NSS #: 3669FE, LB
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Salt Lake Grotto
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby monkey » Aug 13, 2010 3:02 pm

From what I gather, the death was caused by the BOLT failure.

1.Why did the bolt fail?
2. Why were there not 2 bomber bolts at every directional?
3. Why were 2 pulleys attached to one friggin bolt hanger?
4. How long and what type was the bolt that failed?
5. Why the hell cant you get a dead guy out of the cave? Use a winch at that point!

The kid was out until that bolt failed.
Hence the concrete cap!
monkey
Infrequent Poster
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Aug 13, 2010 2:22 pm
  

Re: Another rescue in progress at Utah's Nutty Putty Cave

Postby Scott McCrea » Aug 13, 2010 3:25 pm

Welcome to CaveChat, monkey!

You need to gather some more.
Scott McCrea
SWAYGO
User avatar
Scott McCrea
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 3:07 pm
Location: Asheville, NC USA
NSS #: 40839RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Flittermouse Grotto
  

PreviousNext

Return to Cave Rescue Techniques Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron