Cavechat.org

Excellent post Bill.
Thank you.

Sadly, a Darwin award nomination.

http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2009-15.html

Cheryl Jones wrote:Sadly, a Darwin award nomination.

http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2009-15.html

Anyone else find that to be stupid and offensive?

From the Darwin site:

"When a narrow passage must be navigated, spelunkers know that the safest method is feet-first, making it easier to climb back out."

First of all they used the S word, and secondly, he didn't go in feet first, right? I thought the passage started off going up, so he climbed up, then eventually it sloped own...

Do you find the rest of the entries on that site to be offensive? Afterall, everyone listed on that site died doing an activity they shouldn't have been doing. Just wondering.

JR-Orion wrote:

Cheryl Jones wrote:Sadly, a Darwin award nomination.

http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2009-15.html

Anyone else find that to be stupid and offensive?

Yes. Since there's a way to vote on the article at the bottom of the page I've voted "0-Hate it!".

Chads93GT wrote:Do you find the rest of the entries on that site to be offensive? Afterall, everyone listed on that site died doing an activity they shouldn't have been doing. Just wondering.

I didn't check out the rest of the site. While I've heard the term "Darwin Award" before, I thought it was just an expression. After seeing the entry on Nutty Putty, I don't think I'll bother to check out the rest of the place.

The term Darwin Award is just an expressoin; however, that guy who made that site simply took the idea and ran with it. Usually I hear people say, when someone does something extremely stupid and gets hurt, they says "Thats dwarwinism" or something along those lines. IE, survival of the fittest. that entire site is filled with garbage like that and its been around for a long time.

Chads93GT wrote:The term Darwin Award is just an expressoin; however, that guy who made that site simply took the idea and ran with it. Usually I hear people say, when someone does something extremely stupid and gets hurt, they says "Thats dwarwinism" or something along those lines. IE, survival of the fittest. that entire site is filled with garbage like that and its been around for a long time.

Most people agree that Wendy Northcutt, author of the Darwin Award books that created the idea of the Darwin Award website and expression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards


There is an actual Charles Darwin Award: http://www.zsl.org/science/scientific-a ... 03,AR.html

Dang, learn something every day. Pretty sure that expression has been around longer than the internet though heh.

I have to admit I've found many Darwin Award stories quite entertaining. Some of that stuff you couldn't make up if you tried.

However I fail to see how the Nutty Putty Cave incident qualifies. The award has 5 criteria - inability to reproduce, excellence, self-selection, maturity, and veracity. Four of the five criteria are basically standard check-boxes, but the 'excellence' requirement is quite descriptive:

Astoundingly stupid judgment.
The candidate's foolishness must be unique and sensational, perhaps because the award is intended to be funny. A number of foolish but common activities, such as smoking in bed, are excluded from consideration. In contrast, self-immolation caused by smoking after being administered a flammable ointment in a hospital and specifically told not to smoke is grounds for nomination...

By all accounts, the unfortunate incident in Nutty Putty Cave does not resemble this criteria at all. A reader's question at the bottom of the page sums it up:

Reader Question:
"Isn't this improper by your own rules? He was knowingly engaged in a dangerous sport, but was not outstandingly stupid in how he went about it. A minor misjudgement is not supposed to net a Darwin."
Wendy's Answer:
The incident involved two serious misjudgments: going it alone, and going it feet first, in a cave that was well-known to have trapped people in its narrow twisties. If only he had been more cautious..."

I love the reader's assertion that caving is "a dangerous sport" - compared with what? But even more naive is the reply from "Wendy." Mr Jones wasn't in the cave alone, and it's not unusual for cavers to push leads by themselves when there's little room for anybody else. And what's with the whole feet first thing? Hello, Wendy?? You clearly don't have much of a clue about caves or caving, do you?

I apologize if this line of discussion upset anybody, but in light of recent posts I think it needed to be said. It will definitely be getting a thumbs-down vote from me. Bill's post a couple of weeks ago gets a thumbs-up, though.

Hi. Does anyone know the status of the rescue report being generated by the Utah County Sherrif's office?

DansRock wrote:Hi. Does anyone know the status of the rescue report being generated by the Utah County Sherrif's office?

The liaison person between the Utah Cave Search and Rescue group and the Utah County Sheriff's office is caving in Mexico and won't be back for a week or so. I'll inquire around to see if someone else has info. Don't hold your breath though.

Thanks Dale. I had a feeling it would be awhile until it's released. I'm new to caving with some cousins and we followed this story very closely as it unrolled to its tragic conclusion. A lot of our spouses want us to find a safer hobby and we hope the report can answer a lot of the questions we've been getting.

Can someone comment on the push that John Jones got trapped in and why it wouldn't have been marked as dangerous or closed? I've heard the term "wild cave" and think this designation of Nutty Putty is part of the reason? Is that crawl obviously not large enough to push so that no one would think to mark it? I can't tell from the maps how large is Ed's Push or the entrance to the crawl. Was there any reason for John Jones to think there was a larger space ahead to have crawled what appears to be some distance into it?

The passage has been discussed in detail in this very thread. As for pushing it, its not mapped. How was he to know there wasn't someothing bigger back there? My intuition would have told me that it wasnt mapped for a reason. and I wouldn't have gone in to a downward sloping passage head first :(