Now this is what SAR and NCRC are all about

[Bill Putnam]

I'm a bit appalled that there was significant talk of weapons in rescue situations. I wasn't there so I can't be sure of the context. Just a personal point of contention.

For whatever it's worth, and in all seriousness, I have been present for at least two rescues during which the presence of an armed police officer was necessary in order to prevent interference with the rescue operation from bystanders who threatened rescuers.

I have also been on caving expeditions in a region of the Wyoming mountains where grizzly bears are a serious and frequent threat. Hikers and mountain bikers in the area have been mauled and in one case eaten. In that environment it is (IMHO) a good idea to have some sort of defensive weapon, even it is just a bear-sized cannister of pepper spray. One of my caving companions prefers a Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum, however, and frankly, I am glad that he is willing to bring it.

It's a dangerous world out there. People who are not prepared to take care of themselves are apt to get into trouble. I am glad to go and help them, but I do not want to get hurt or killed in the process, whether by the cave or by an animal or by some mean-spirited person. My family would not appreciate that.

[Bill Putnam]

I'm a huge fan of OCRs (Orientation to Cave Rescue). That's what this 2 day course was for those not familiar with it. Properly done it can do a great job of getting cavers and agency folks talking the same language.

I highly recommend any agency interested in doing an OCR (or even help host one) to contact their local NCRC regional coordinator (see the web page for details) NCRC Info

Right on, Greg. OCR in the Texas/Arkansas model may be the wave of the future. They packed a lot of great training into one weekend. Beaucoup bang for very small bucks.

Hey Tim Bob - when are we going to do an OCR in TAG? People were asking me about it after the DCG meeting just this week. I promised to talk to you about it, so ... let's pick a date and make a plan!

[shibumi]

I'm a bit appalled that there was significant talk of weapons in rescue situations. I wasn't there so I can't be sure of the context. Just a personal point of contention.

For whatever it's worth, and in all seriousness, I have been present for at least two rescues during which the presence of an armed police officer was necessary in order to prevent interference with the rescue operation from bystanders who threatened rescuers.

I've been on two rescues where the rescuers had some degree of threat from a person with a weapon.
In one case the person had left a suicide note saying he was going into the cave to kill himself. In both
cases the person would have been very inadvisable to fire on responders.

Also, in 1995 (I think, it was at Bristol second year) the mock rescue was called when the son of the landowner
who seemed to have some mental issues started firing off a shotgun and yelling for everyone
to get off his land. We hunkered in the cave until the sheriff arrived.

And as Frank Reid so aptly quoted the Russian cavers who visited a couple decades ago, "we can't
go back home and tell everyone we were involved with an underground organization that has guns
and explosives." Ahhh, those were the days.

Anmar, who is one of the NCRC instructors who sits around after hours talking about shooting the
fish.

[SpeleoRover]

Oh - I'm sure it was presented a bit out of context. That wasn't the only problem with the story. When it ran locally they screwed up the location and reported that it was held where I work. It wasn't. I know this because DJ and the boys came to my office after the class and I gave them a tour of our facility for future use in NCRC events.

Good bunch!

And for the record - I'd be talking guns with them too. I love target shooting. Just don't have the heart for hunting anymore ( I accept donations of venison with open arms, though).

[Stridergdm]

Btw, as for shooting into water, I'm surprised no one mentioned MythBusters. They tested this.

And if you want to shoot fish in a barrel use the right weapon.

I once spoke to my grandfather who served on PT Boats in WWII. He mentioned how they used depth charges to go "fishing." I asked him how the Navy felt about them wasting depth charges in this way. He looked at me with a perfectly straight face and said, "But Greg, we did have to practice." Despite, as far as I can recall, no PT Boat ever actually successfully engaging a submarine.

[Stridergdm]

I'm a huge fan of OCRs (Orientation to Cave Rescue). That's what this 2 day course was for those not familiar with it. Properly done it can do a great job of getting cavers and agency folks talking the same language.

I highly recommend any agency interested in doing an OCR (or even help host one) to contact their local NCRC regional coordinator (see the web page for details) NCRC Info

Right on, Greg. OCR in the Texas/Arkansas model may be the wave of the future. They packed a lot of great training into one weekend. Beaucoup bang for very small bucks.

Hey Tim Bob - when are we going to do an OCR in TAG? People were asking me about it after the DCG meeting just this week. I promised to talk to you about it, so ... let's pick a date and make a plan!

We've had a lot of luck up in the upstate NY area with involving agency folks. We have an OCR planned for later this month and one planned for early next year. The one early next year is specifically aimed at a couple of agencies.

I really enjoy teaching at OCRs. Just wish I had more time in the year to do everything since I have this family I hear about that I'd like to see more often.

[Ralph E. Powers]

The Cave SAR unit that I trained with (all instructors were NCRC level 2 or higher certified) usually held joint training sessions with various county SAR units as part P.R., part preparedness, part sharing of ideas, experience, part rubbing elbows. This made for better rescues in confined spaces and caves/mines. We were even asked to join on surface searches for lost hikers, etc.... to which we were glad to participate adding in our manpower (and an opportunity to ridgewalk at the same time -- find a hole... hmm they MIGHT be in there, better go check *wink* *wink* ) which only added to our experiences and good relations.

I've been out of the loop (voluntarily) for a while but miss them. Perhaps someday I'll roll up my sleeves again and give it a go.

[incavenow]

I do recall, I believe it was in 1993, when we had an OCR here in Walker County, Georgia. I enjoyed every minute of it. We practiced in Pettijohn's Cave, the "Pocket' on Crockford-Pigeon Mtn. and at the rescue hall. Very informative and the cavers who particpated learned a lot. I know I did. As far as shooting fish, hey they shoot rapids, so you might as well aim for something to eat while your firing at the water .
On the gun bit.. I'm a shootist also and I'm sure there are more than enough reasons for a law enforcement officer to carry a weapon on a wilderness rescue. There are some VERY strange people out there nowadays. The rescue folks here get all my respect. Hamilton Co. Tn, Dade and Walker Co.s in Georgia have some of finest, most dedicated and knowledgable people on their rescue and SAR teams. Their efforts have helped many people over the years. I would love to see another OCR here and would gladly participate.
I also would be glad to recieve any donations of venison that anyone finds they have no use for. Since I got married, my hunting has been reduced to small game.

[Stridergdm]

The Cave SAR unit that I trained with (all instructors were NCRC level 2 or higher certified)

BTW, missed this. Note, the NCRC does NOT certify rescuers. (Certification would imply certain legalities that don't exist).

[Ernie Coffman]

by Stridergdm on Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:19 pm
Ralph E. Powers wrote:
The Cave SAR unit that I trained with (all instructors were NCRC level 2 or higher certified)

BTW, missed this. Note, the NCRC does NOT certify rescuers. (Certification would imply certain legalities that don't exist).

Sorry for not responding earlier, but just got back home from a holiday in Quebec, Novia Scotia, etc. (I know, I know! That part's off topic. ) Anyway, as for Sridergdm's comment in reference to Ralph's comments about the NCRC certifications, I believe we all understand this, but...how else does one indicate whether they've been NCRC Level One, Level Two, or Level Three than what Ralph wrote? It's not a certified level because of the legalities, as Stridergdm wrote, but...then what else do you refer the levels to?

[ron_miller]

...how else does one indicate whether they've been NCRC Level One, Level Two, or Level Three than what Ralph wrote?

How about simply - "Level [n] NCRC trained"?

[Ernie Coffman]

Looks good to me Ron, but we'll have to see what the NCRC trainers think of your comment.

[NZcaver]

Sounds fine to me. Or you could simply say "completed level [n] NCRC" - that's bascially what's printed on the certificates.

Sometimes nitpicking the terminology like this can make some of us sound a little too pedantic. On the other hand, I do think it's important for people to understand what certification implies in the professional sense, and why the NCRC does not "certify" level 1,2,3, OCR, SPR etc students.

[Caver John]

Here's a link to a great article, showing what NCRC is showing SAR members...and vice versa on a mock removal of an injured spelunker...or caver. To me, this is what NCRC is all about, besides training new levels; and, should be assisting SAR units all over the U.S. Here's to more units getting involved, as this one in Arkansas has done.

http://www.nwanews.com:80/adg/News/236075/

My local SAR team has done a crash coarse on cave rescue including a mock search/extrication. I think it's a great idea fOr SAR teams to practice this stuff especially if they're are caves inthe area.

Also on the subject of firearms, only a few of us on my team are proficient with firearms, with that said, I can def see the subject coming up in discussion.
I pretty much always carry during a search(above ground), for several reasons
But never in cave

[Ernie Coffman]

Caver John, you're right on the money with your comments IMHO. Don't know where you're at, but our SAGrotto and local SAR units just had a cave practice, which was in their area of northern California, also. A lot of good working together got the subject out of the cave and revitalized...by a real doctor whose in the grotto, so...great finish.