Simmons-Mingo

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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby Bob Thrun » Dec 30, 2007 8:50 pm

Thanks for the detailed report cavingstud19. It has been a long time since I was in the middle of the cave. It sounds like you took a different route thru the cave than what I used. The station E31 in my data is farther in than I thought you were when you got rescued, but there may have been some duplication of station names in the cave.

I would like to find out exactly where the group was. I will offer to lead a trip next year with some of the rescued and/or rescuers. I will probably be doing some surveying too. I also wonder about the 30-foot climb where a rope was handy.

I will disagree with some of the suggestionsfor a space blanket or insulating foam. I do not go into a cave with camping gear to use while waiting to be rescued.
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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby cavingstud19 » Dec 31, 2007 3:00 pm

Yes, Sounds good. I look at the map and E31 is no where to be found. ITs like a huge mistory. Id have to take you in the historic entrence in order to show you the section we were in. We are planning a trip come this summer or early spring. I will be glad to keep you informed on the dates and such incase you would like to come along. I think if this section was on the map it would be so much easier to find. We did through trips before in this cave but we missed a turn. we are all experienced cavers. We would like to find the high dry route. If you go in anytime soon and see red and white reflectors in the historic entrence, they are our markers and they will take you to where we got lost. Ill keep you informed on our caving plans. the next cave were going to is the carnegie cave system in shippensburg, pa on Feb 9th. if your in the area your more then welcome to come along. Anyone is welcome on any of our trips. As for light my petzl duo 5 led light quit working that weekend so i had a petzl zoom that weekend. I had to change my batteries every 6 hours. Everyone else had led and they did not have to change batteries at all. I did contact Karst Sports afterwords and they replaced mine for free. One other had a petzl duo i think it was a 9 or 14 led. THe rest had walmart special led headlamps from the camping sections. They worked great for them. As for me being on my last set of batteries by the time we got rescued was a crazy. i had alot of batteries with me but with being lost for 53 hours changing every 6 hrs did not help. I now have my 5 led and it works great. I foudn that something goes wrong with the wire's. I not have emergency blankets. I wanted to get one before but now on the places i went to had them and the one i had was wet and fell apart. We had about 6 or 7 bottles of water between us all. We did refill before we left the stream just incase but that ran out fast. We had snicker bars and 3 muskiteers and some sandwiches and i also think beef jurkey. We took all the normal stuff we usualy take.

skye
Last edited by cavingstud19 on Dec 31, 2007 3:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby wendy » Dec 31, 2007 3:11 pm

Bob Thrun wrote:I will disagree with some of the suggestionsfor a space blanket or insulating foam. I do not go into a cave with camping gear to use while waiting to be rescued.


It's not camping gear they are referring to. Space blankets can be packed tiny, I have a mylar balnket in my cave pack that is in a zip lock 3"x4" and just a couple cm thick. Even a plastic garbage bag folded into the top of a helmet can suffice as a space blanket and keep you warm wrapped around you and a small flame of a candle under you. I thought this was pretty much standard in a cave pack along with a first aid kit, water, and a snack.
"Blessed are they who learn from their mistakes. For they shall make, if not necessarily fewer of them, different and more interesting ones."

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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby cavingstud19 » Dec 31, 2007 3:32 pm

Bob Thrun wrote:Thanks for the detailed report cavingstud19. It has been a long time since I was in the middle of the cave. It sounds like you took a different route thru the cave than what I used. The station E31 in my data is farther in than I thought you were when you got rescued, but there may have been some duplication of station names in the cave.

I would like to find out exactly where the group was. I will offer to lead a trip next year with some of the rescued and/or rescuers. I will probably be doing some surveying too. I also wonder about the 30-foot climb where a rope was handy.

I will disagree with some of the suggestionsfor a space blanket or insulating foam. I do not go into a cave with camping gear to use while waiting to be rescued.


I wouldl like to come along with you on your trip. Just give me a heads up on when it is.

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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby NZcaver » Dec 31, 2007 4:27 pm

Bob Thrun wrote:I will disagree with some of the suggestionsfor a space blanket or insulating foam. I do not go into a cave with camping gear to use while waiting to be rescued.

As Wendy suggested, it's not so much "camping gear" as survival gear. But I'm guessing you already knew what people meant when you posted that. I see no reason to discourage cavers from carrying a simple plastic bag and/or tiny space blanket in their packs, along with a small foam pad for back comfort when wearing the pack - which can double as butt comfort/insulation when sitting. Or carrying a candle and lighter, heat packs, or whatever else one chooses within reason.

I mean no disrespect, but I have to say I'm surprised that an experienced caver would dismiss the suggestion of carrying a few small insulative survival items when caving. It's true, we all have the freedom to make our own choices. But what if you or one of your party become ill, injured, exhausted, dehydrated, and/or hypothermic? You may find yourself in a position where you have no choice but to just camp out "waiting to be rescued." I don't know about you, but unless I'm in a really warm climate cave I'd be using every trick I can to stay warm if I found myself in that type of situation. Just a thought.
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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby George Dasher » Dec 31, 2007 6:38 pm

Keep in mind that you can also use an empty cave pack under your butt for insulation.

And your greatest source of heat is to cuddle with the person or persons you are with. I've read that the Russians, during WWII, actually tied groups of soldiers together standing up to keep them warm. They would rotate, like penguins, during the night.
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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby cavingstud19 » Dec 31, 2007 6:57 pm

Well, I dont take any foam in wth me. USualy i use a space blanket but the one i was takin before the accident got messed up so when it came time to cave everywhere i looked did not have one. I now have one along with candles. i now have a emergency nalgene bottle that karstsports sells that is fulley stocked. THey are pretty nice
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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby cavingstud19 » Dec 31, 2007 6:59 pm

George Dasher wrote:Keep in mind that you can also use an empty cave pack under your butt for insulation.

And your greatest source of heat is to cuddle with the person or persons you are with. I've read that the Russians, during WWII, actually tied groups of soldiers together standing up to keep them warm. They would rotate, like penguins, during the night.


Indeed we did use our cave pack to lay on. I made keri lay ontop of me to keep her wormer cause she did not have as many layers as me. We huddled together also. We slept for 15 min and then woudl wake up and keep moving. the more we moved the wormer we were. but with being so tired i was only able to move about 3 steps without having to rest for about half hr. it was pretty crazy. we huddled together all the time. it helped out alot.
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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby NZcaver » Dec 31, 2007 10:23 pm

George Dasher wrote:Keep in mind that you can also use an empty cave pack under your butt for insulation.

And your greatest source of heat is to cuddle with the person or persons you are with. I've read that the Russians, during WWII, actually tied groups of soldiers together standing up to keep them warm. They would rotate, like penguins, during the night.

Good point. A similar practice is taught for surviving in cold water.

Just think - a few empty caving packs and pieces of foam underneath, a space blanket or plastic bag above, and a sandwich of smelly cavers inbetween... now that's survival! :grin:

Cavingstud, you guys obviously did some things right. Glad you decided to join us here on the forum, and thanks for posting that very detailed report by your friend Heidi.
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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby cavingstud19 » Dec 31, 2007 10:50 pm

NZcaver wrote:
George Dasher wrote:Keep in mind that you can also use an empty cave pack under your butt for insulation.

And your greatest source of heat is to cuddle with the person or persons you are with. I've read that the Russians, during WWII, actually tied groups of soldiers together standing up to keep them warm. They would rotate, like penguins, during the night.

Good point. A similar practice is taught for surviving in cold water.

Just think - a few empty caving packs and pieces of foam underneath, a space blanket or plastic bag above, and a sandwich of smelly cavers inbetween... now that's survival! :grin:

Cavingstud, you guys obviously did some things right. Glad you decided to join us here on the forum, and thanks for posting that very detailed report by your friend Heidi.


Why thank you. I knew from being a experienced caver what to do. I was in a cave rescue once before when a member of the group got stuck in a crawl because part of the roof fell on him. We had rope and we were able to pull it off of him. It was pretty heavy but he was ok. That was the first rescue i have even taken part of. Being on both ends i Know which side i would rather be on. and that is none. lol. But it was life changing and prayer was our main objective at the time.
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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby shibumi » Jan 1, 2008 11:45 am

cavingstud19 wrote:Indeed we did use our cave pack to lay on. I made keri lay ontop of me to keep her wormer cause she did not have as many layers as me. We huddled together also. We slept for 15 min and then woudl wake up and keep moving. the more we moved the wormer we were. but with being so tired i was only able to move about 3 steps without having to rest for about half hr. it was pretty crazy. we huddled together all the time. it helped out alot.


When I first started in rescue I used to think that anyone we rescued (average cave temp here is 52-54f) who had been sitting for more than a few hours would be developing hypothermia, and anyone who had been sitting for more than a day would most likely need to be carried out. Then we had two rescues within a year that involved people in wet caves who had been in the cave lost for more than 52 and 56 hours respectively. In both cases we were able to feed them, get them moving carefully, and by the time we got to the entrances they were fine. Since then I have come to have a great deal of respect for the few basic heat saving measures that are possible to ensure longer survival in cave temperatures if one has to sit and wait (I am excluding things like entrapment or long term immersion). Indeed, I have spent a few nights sleeping on long trips for several hours using nothing more than my pack to sit on, a trash bag, and a candle. It was not comfortable, but it was very possible. I will echo other folks lack of understanding why Bob would disparage the carrying of a few very basic and very versatile survival tools. As a personal choice you can carry what you choose, but we're not discussing carrying full kit here.
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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby Bob Thrun » Jan 3, 2008 12:55 pm

wendy wrote:It's not camping gear they are referring to. Space blankets can be packed tiny, I have a mylar balnket in my cave pack that is in a zip lock 3"x4" and just a couple cm thick. Even a plastic garbage bag folded into the top of a helmet can suffice as a space blanket and keep you warm wrapped around you and a small flame of a candle under you. I thought this was pretty much standard in a cave pack along with a first aid kit, water, and a snack.


When I started caving I carried a candle as my third source of light. After a while, it became two lumps of wax in a plastic bag. I tried making candles in aluminum from cans, but they did not burn very well. I never tried traveling with a candle as a source of light. but realized it would be awkward. I gave up on candles.

When space blankets first came out, I carried one. After a wet cave, water leaked into the package and all the reflective metal coating came off. I tried a space blanket outside of a cave and found that I did not notice it making me any warmer. This confirmed my experience with a fabric called Millium. It was a metallized fabric sold for coat linings. A coat with it was no better than a similar coat with a plain lining. I concluded that the main value of a space blanket was in stopping drafts. If I have to stop for a while in a cave, I try to rest in a spot with no breezes.

I can see placing a candle or carbide lamp under a poncho or drop cloth during a prolonged wait, but I would not plan on having a prolonged wait for something like a Simmons-Mingo through trip.

The best use of a space blanket is in photography, for pictures with a sunbeam coming the entrance. It can be used as a reflector to light up otherwise dark corners of the entrance room.
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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby cavingstud18 » Jan 10, 2008 1:13 pm

I agree wiht you on the space blankets. I did have one but after many wet caves and not using it the foil pealed off. I now have a new one that im keeping in its original package but im thinking it may end up the same way. Maby some type of conatiner will help keep it in better shape. I do think you should get a new one every so often. Never hurts and walmart sells them cheep. Il find out come feb when i go on my nex trip how the blanket does.
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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby MUD » Jan 10, 2008 2:02 pm

Bob Thrun wrote:The best use of a space blanket is in photography, for pictures with a sunbeam coming the entrance. It can be used as a reflector to light up otherwise dark corners of the entrance room.


:laughing: git'em Bob... :rofl:
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Re: Simmons-Mingo

Postby NZcaver » Jan 10, 2008 9:25 pm

Bob Thrun wrote:When space blankets first came out, I carried one. After a wet cave, water leaked into the package and all the reflective metal coating came off. I tried a space blanket outside of a cave and found that I did not notice it making me any warmer. This confirmed my experience with a fabric called Millium. It was a metallized fabric sold for coat linings. A coat with it was no better than a similar coat with a plain lining. I concluded that the main value of a space blanket was in stopping drafts. If I have to stop for a while in a cave, I try to rest in a spot with no breezes.


I remember some time back in the mid-90's, I was amazed to see an old one of those space blankets peel like that when a friend tried to extract it from it's wrapper. Not sure if it had got wet or not. I guess with those ones, you just have to make the effort to dry them out after use, and seal them up properly. On the upside I think you'll find some of that space blanket technology has changed considerably over the years, and the newer materials I've used seem to be more effective (warmer) than what you experienced. I've never heard of Millium, but I've certainly used Mylar and polyethylene versions with no issues. There's probably some even more efficient and resilient materials out there now, too.

And yes, they do work pretty well for reflecting light. :camera:
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