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Postby wendy » May 5, 2007 8:09 pm

icave wrote:I heard a rumor that two of those rescued were from Nittany Grotto. Any truth to that?


I know that at least one of them is in the NSS member's manual. It would be nice if they joined our discussion board and gave us the inside scoop on the rescue, etc.
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Postby MUD » May 6, 2007 9:23 am

I beleive the inside scoop is obvious....SPEEEEEELUUUUNKERS!!! :oops:
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Postby MoonshineR DavE » May 7, 2007 1:42 pm

Cavemud wrote:I beleive the inside scoop is obvious....SPEEEEEELUUUUNKERS!!! :oops:


:rofl:
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Postby adleedy » May 7, 2007 2:54 pm

Cavemud wrote:I beleive the inside scoop is obvious....SPEEEEEELUUUUNKERS!!! :oops:



:rofl: :laughing: :tonguecheek:
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Postby wendy » May 8, 2007 12:48 am

Cavemud wrote:I beleive the inside scoop is obvious....SPEEEEEELUUUUNKERS!!! :oops:


well maybe not, in the videos they were well dressed, had helmets and lights, etc


things do happen and could happen to any of us, so before we bash others, ask if you would want others to bash you in what is an embarrassing situation that luckily turned out well in the end, everyone safe with no lastling damage to themselves or the cave
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Postby Stridergdm » May 8, 2007 8:46 am

wendy wrote:
Cavemud wrote:I beleive the inside scoop is obvious....SPEEEEEELUUUUNKERS!!! :oops:


well maybe not, in the videos they were well dressed, had helmets and lights, etc


things do happen and could happen to any of us, so before we bash others, ask if you would want others to bash you in what is an embarrassing situation that luckily turned out well in the end, everyone safe with no lastling damage to themselves or the cave


I think this is an important point. And goes back earlier to a comment I made about how cavers are often wont to delay a call-out due to possible embarrassment.

First rescue I got called out on was a very experienced caver. As it was, it took 36 hours or more to get him out. If they had delayed the call-out, medically he could have ended up in MUCH worse condition.

So yeah, I'm with Wendy on this.

Which reminds me, in another thread someone commented on the ACA (American Cave Accident report) being good for some laughs. And it certainly is at times. But a fair number of those rescues happen to experienced cavers and could happen to any of us at anytime.
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Postby adleedy » May 8, 2007 11:30 am

wendy wrote:
Cavemud wrote:I beleive the inside scoop is obvious....SPEEEEEELUUUUNKERS!!! :oops:


well maybe not, in the videos they were well dressed, had helmets and lights, etc


In what video, could you tell that the rescued cavers had been well dressed with proper lights and helmets? every video i seen they were laying underneath of blankets.
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Postby wendy » May 8, 2007 11:50 am

adleedy wrote:
wendy wrote:
Cavemud wrote:I beleive the inside scoop is obvious....SPEEEEEELUUUUNKERS!!! :oops:


well maybe not, in the videos they were well dressed, had helmets and lights, etc


In what video, could you tell that the rescued cavers had been well dressed with proper lights and helmets? every video i seen they were laying underneath of blankets.


ok maybe I was mistaken, but then again, you can't say that they weren't well prepared, getting lost is the only thing you can gather from any of those reports
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Postby Tim White » May 8, 2007 12:08 pm

A Pittsburgh Grotto member who was at the rescue said “there were 2 experienced cavers and 3 beginners...”.

I suppose we could discuss the definition of what constitutes an “experienced caver” and when one is a “beginner” vs. a first timer, and on and on and on.... :hairpull:

I personally know a number of ‘spelunkers” whom we had to rescue, but later went on to become well experienced (and even hardcore) cavers. We did not ridicule them over their mistake. Rather we explained how their judgment may have been off base at that time and educated them on proper skills.

Were we not all spelunkers or beginners once? If I make a mistake and require a rescue, am I now demoted back to spelunker status? :doh:
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Postby adleedy » May 8, 2007 12:24 pm

Tim White wrote:A Pittsburgh Grotto member who was at the rescue said “there were 2 experienced cavers and 3 beginners...”.

I suppose we could discuss the definition of what constitutes an “experienced caver” and when one is a “beginner” vs. a first timer, and on and on and on.... :hairpull:

I personally know a number of ‘spelunkers” whom we had to rescue, but later went on to become well experienced (and even hardcore) cavers. We did not ridicule them over their mistake. Rather we explained how their judgment may have been off base at that time and educated them on proper skills.

Were we not all spelunkers or beginners once? If I make a mistake and require a rescue, am I now demoted back to spelunker status? :doh:


Your are correct wayne, i truly believe cavemud's remark was all in good sport. so i laughed, in no way do i feel that getting turned around, lost or even rescued makes you a "spelunker"
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Postby George Dasher » May 8, 2007 1:17 pm

Isn't it possible, as we get older and our caving skills lessen, that we all revert to being spelunkers.
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Postby MUD » May 8, 2007 11:25 pm

Just because you wear the gear, don't make you the star, ya know? :grin:
I don't beleive an experienced caver would have taken a group of people in a cave and then got lost. An experienced caver would not have gotten lost because they would know the cave or would know not to take people into a cave they don't know well. That's why I said "speeeeluuuuunkers!!!"
Important thing is, no one was seriously hurt and they probably learned a little something about caving, themselves and each other! :kewl: Hopefully as I get older I'll never revert to being a speeeeluuuunker but mebbe an armchair caver as this would be more safe??? :laughing:
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Postby Stridergdm » May 9, 2007 8:12 am

Cavemud wrote:Just because you wear the gear, don't make you the star, ya know? :grin:
I don't beleive an experienced caver would have taken a group of people in a cave and then got lost. An experienced caver would not have gotten lost because they would know the cave or would know not to take people into a cave they don't know well. That's why I said "speeeeluuuuunkers!!!"
Important thing is, no one was seriously hurt and they probably learned a little something about caving, themselves and each other! :kewl: Hopefully as I get older I'll never revert to being a speeeeluuuunker but mebbe an armchair caver as this would be more safe??? :laughing:


I'm going to have to disagree on that. Experienced cavers can make mistakes and often do.

In some cases it can take just a moment distraction as you take a wrong turn or follow someone else down a passage.

Also, experienced cavers often get themselves into different sorts of trouble.

Inexperienced cavers for example are less likely to push a tight passage, so searching for them typically means looking in the big/obvious places first.

Experienced cavers are often more likely to push the tighter stuff, try the hairier stuff.

So, again, I'm not sure based on what little I've seen these folks could be classified as spelunkers or experienced or anything.

Just my 2 cents.
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Postby George Dasher » May 9, 2007 8:28 am

This group clearly didn't have the knowledge to find their way through the cave, or the experience to retrace their steps.

And that equals inexperience with the cave system and with caving. They were, at best, border-line spelunkers.

The solution was someone who knew the cave better, and/or more experienced cavers to help them find their way back.

Things go wrong on caving trips. They can be little things, but they can be scarey. That's when you need other experienced cavers to jump in and help solve the problem. They are insurance against the entire trip going bad. I can't count the times experienced cavers on my trips have made the difference between a good trip and a bad trip.
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Postby adleedy » May 9, 2007 8:51 am

George Dasher wrote:This group clearly didn't have the knowledge to find their way through the cave, or the experience to retrace their steps.

And that equals inexperience with the cave system and with caving. They were, at best, border-line spelunkers.

The solution was someone who knew the cave better, and/or more experienced cavers to help them find their way back.

Things go wrong on caving trips. They can be little things, but they can be scarey. That's when you need other experienced cavers to jump in and help solve the problem. They are insurance against the entire trip going bad. I can't count the times experienced cavers on my trips have made the difference between a good trip and a bad trip.


Very well said George
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