Course listings??

[self-deleted_user]

I've been checking the NCRC site every few weeks for a while now, but it's always the same three it seems. (TN, CA, and WA). Are there ever any others? There have to be, I've heard of things and stuff. I know IN has one coming up but whoever scheduled it brilliantly put it the same weekend as the fall TAG cave-in. I find this is often a common issue actually - seems most the training events are scheduled for the same time as caving events.

Anyway, is there a more complete course listing anywhere? And any ideas on how to get people to check for other major cave events already scheduled that weekend before popping in later with the rescue training? Is there any "Midwest" region?

[scrambler]

Amy.
I am sorry that you have not found a cave rescue training class that you can attend. There are typically 1 National Week Long training seminars per year and a few Regional ones located throughout the country. A weekend course, typically known as an Orientation to Cave Rescue (OCR), are held at a variety of places throughout the country at different times and locations based upon the need of that particular area. Typically, OCR trainings are scheduled when a group or grotto requests this training and therefore there isn't a scheduled list of trainings available on the website.

As for the Indiana OCR, it was requested by a group who wanted that particular date. It was known that it would be the same weekend as the TAG Cave-In, however, the group requesting did not find that an issue for the potential people who would attend--namely newer IU student cavers. With the large number of caving events that take place around the country, it is inevitable that it will interfere with some event or another. The timing of trainings is taken mostly under consideration for the longer trainings and not weekend seminars.

If you have been checking the website regularly, you no doubtly have seen the large box at the top that has a listing of links including the NCRC Charter, Training Information, as well as a Regions and Regional Coordinators link (middle box, second from the top). By clicking on this, you can see that the United States is broken up into 10 Regions. I believe that you are presently in the Central Region. You can always contact your Regional Coordinator by emailing (Central (at) NCRC. info) to get a better understanding of what training is available in your area. I would like you to please also understand that this is an all volunteer organization and while many of us try our hardest to cater the the vast caving community, there are many more of you than there are of us. Please be patient with us and communicate your needs to those who may be in a position to help. Posting snarky comments as to why a training was "brilliantly put the same weekend as the fall TAG cave in" will not endear you to the rescue community.

[Anonymous_Coward]

Hi Amy,

I think I might be able to clear up things at least a little bit for you.

First of all, it is very common for several caving events to be scheduled all at the same time. It mostly has to do with holiday weekends. You mention TAG, which is always on Columbus Day. Many other events want to take advantage of the extra day off as well. I'm sure whoever scheduled the IN thing you mention is well aware of TAG fall cave-in happening three states away.

A good example is this Labor Day weekend coming up. I am aware of a Western Regional at Great Basin NP, a Rocky Mtn. Regional in the Black Hills, PupFest in Sewannee, and OTR in WV all on the same weekend. I'm sure there are others. It's not that the organizers are ignorant of the other events, they are just all taking advantage of the long weekend.

That said, I am glad you are interested in NCRC and I hope you find a course that works for you. The South Dakota weeklong is not listed because it is NPS sponsored and invitation only. That said, they are trying to fill spots in Level 2 with anyone that is interested. I know that doesn't help you because you are looking for a level 1.

The next one I know about that you might want to take advantage of will be the national weeklong in Mentone, Alabama in May 2012. It is becoming tradition it seems to have each even-numbered year at Camp Skyline in Mentone. It is a central location for many instructors and potential students and it is a fantastic facility with great nearby caves and cliffs. The owner is also a big fan of NCRC and so it all works out well for everyone. I am not sure of the exact dates, but it is usually the third week in May. I do not know why it takes so long for the NCRC to publish the seminar dates on the website, but I would expect that it has to be formally voted on by the education committee before they can post it. They will be meeting next in November 2011, so I would look for the national seminar dates to be posted shortly thereafter if not before. I will keep an eye on it and let you know if it pops up before then.

I hope you can make it to Mentone. It is an beautiful place and the seminars there are usually attended by around 100 people. It also works nicely for doing a little TAG caving afterwards on the same trip. I am planning on teaching in Mentone next year, although I do not know yet what level.

See you there?

[Marduke]

I would add the Huntsville Cave Rescue Unit does a 4 day (3 without certification) cave rescue tech class every August. That happens to be this weekend.

[self-deleted_user]

I did not mean to be "snarky" - it was just interesting that it was just announced and yet at Capers two weeks back (before it was announced, or at least, before I heard about it) quite a few talking about TAG and making carpool/travel plans and stuff like that, so there is definitely decent interest in attending TAG in Indiana. Perhaps that background helps with my surprise and confusion and yes, frustration, at the date chosen.

Yeah and I'd totally be at the Hville one, Marduke (I know you told me about that one like a month or two ago), that one is "my fault" for not getting to - our group's capoeira batizado is this weekend as well which takes precedence (it's annual and when we get our promotions and stuff so of /course/ I'm attending and we have visitors from ISRAEL here! ) anyway....yeah that one I take "fault" for not making it too as Tag isn't super-hard to get to (no harder than IN anyway).

May 2012, awesome, I have nothing planned for May yet! I'll jot a note on my calendar to hold the later parts of May, thanks!

And yeah, I know half the issue is simply I live uberfar from caves, so there isn't a caver base here, and hence, no interest in caving alone much less something like learning cave rescue. It takes a lot of planning (getting off work, figuring out travel, working with my budget/finances to afford it...) to get into a more caving region. I do the best I can, sorry if I come across as angry, I'm not, it just gets hard and frustrating to try planning and try to do things and learn things when it seems like everything tries to stop me! I hope you can understand =) At the very least, more advance notification (whether by more stuff posted here, or on the NCRC site, something) would be most helpful. Like the May opportunity mentioned. That gives me PLENTY of time to try and plan for!

[wyandottecaver]

Patience Grasshopper :)

Weekend NCRC courses are frequent enough that eventually you will make one. I will say, having done both, that you get MUCH more bang for your buck and time doing the weeklong.

I had done quite a bit of caving including vertical before doing the weeklong. I never looked at rigging a drop the same again.

I would also see if you can get some training materials sent to you and study up, particularly on knots and your vertical changeovers.

Finally, while it is likely beyond your budget right now, OR1 used to put on excellent rope technician courses down at desoto falls.

[ct1]

As has been stated already the NCRC instructors are all volunteer so we have to teach when we are available and many of those times just happen to fall on holiday weekends when we can travel to those events. As far as getting things posted on the Net again that is done by someone in their spare time.
So as for the OCR in Indiana it was mentioned at Cavecapers because it had just received permission to orginize it that day and of course you can not hold the class if there is no interest. In an OCR there is not vertical caving it is designed for anyone interested in caving and rescue and many of the people who requested this OCR are begining caves so they do not do vertical work yet.
That is one of the things about caving there is so much to do that you sort of have to pick and choose what you want to do that trip. Do you want to go to the Rescue class, or do the big pit or go survey, or ridge walk or, or, or...

If you want to know what is going on the best thing to do is contact your regional coordinator for the most up to date information.

Just FYI if you are planning to come to the Weeklong take a look at the NCRC web page and take a look at the student resources section it will let you know what you will need to bring with you as well as the skills that you should be able to do when you get the the seminar. As was stated earlier being able to do a change over and also how to down climb with your vertical system are skills that will be needed. The seminar is some time in Mid to Late May and the registration page should be up soon.

[self-deleted_user]

Thanks for the ideas! Last I did a skim of the requirements for the NCRC level 1 I had the skills necessary but I will definitely have to figure out a way to practice and be sure. I can change over both directions (blindfolded, even!) and downclimb. And I know quite a few knots (I love knots >_> I even took Knot Theory at uni...) And being next May means I have a tonnnn of time to study and practice. As my capi instructor always says, "Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent". It's the study that makes perfect! ;)

Indeed there is a lot to do...especially when it takes extra planning to do things than when you have caves basically on your doorstep! I guess I should count my blessings I get to do cave-y things as much as I do =) And...maybe I'll just have to start nagging Aaron for more vertical practice days again haha.

[Stridergdm]

Yeah, to pile on what others have said, best bet in some cases is simply to find your local regional coordinator and say, "Hey, can we do something." The one coming up in October here in NYS was partly because a student at one of the local schools has been hounding me for awhile and that just happened to be the first good weekend that worked out for all involved.

That said locally we've also done some 1 day courses lately, again because a specific group of people have asked for it.

Oh and it never hurts if you offer to advertise and do some of the legwork Seriously it takes a minimum number of students to make a class (be it a weeklong or an OCR) practical, so if enough are guaranteed, it makes the class more likely to happen.

(and note we DO have spots here in October ;-)

(hmm, I'll have to get after the person who updates the NCRC website to get him to update about our course, Oct. 23/24 for anyone interested.)

[self-deleted_user]

Hmm okay maybe I can get my grotto interested or something =) I actually attended a grotto meeting 2 weeks back even! ha, too bad I hadn't connected that idea then, I could've brought it up.

[shibumi]

The 2012 NCRC Weeklong Nationals is May 19-26. Registration has not been posted yet because last minute budget dealings had not been finalized. For instance the NCRC had to add additional insurance fees to this seminar because the NSS got a new insurance policy and it will cost the NCRC an additional $4000 per year that had not been budgeted for.

It takes a HUGE amount of work to put together a national seminar, involving around a hundred people or more working together to make it happen. The teaching part of the seminar itself aside, it takes on the order of a couple of thousand man-hours to just get one organized. Often a significant portion of that time is done by a handful of people.

No one involved gets paid for this and quite a number of people contribute out of their own pockets to ensure that a seminar can happen and that it can be as relatively inexpensive as it is for the students. And yes, I know $500-600 is a lot of money, but I can't think of any other 8 days training seminar where your meals are provided that even comes close to costing that little.

And that is just to put on a seminar. That doesn't even begin to touch how much time and effort that goes into curriculum development and the general organizational structure of the NCRC.

All of which is not only volunteer, but the expenses are paid for out of the pockets of the volunteers. Amy, it might cost you some travel time and cost and vacation time, but the volunteers who make NCRC happen put in more. A lot more. All so that the caving community can be served. Not only in making people safer cavers and preventing problems from even happening, but also to do what cavers do best: get one of our own back when there's need.

It is easy to sit back and criticize and a lot of people do. Occasionally some of those people who criticize actually step up and volunteer to help make it happen. The burnout rate for those volunteers is high once they understand that it takes a lot more work and effort than they realized. The programs we can offer and the low cost we can offer them at, ONLY happen because some people step forward to put in the work above and beyond just taking the class. Unfortunately, because we are an all volunteer organization, often times things happen far less smoothly or in as organized a fashion than most of us would like. If it bothers you, step forward to make it better and earn the right to be critical.

As far as the Indiana OCR and it's timing: other people have said it well. It is very difficult to schedule ANY caving event that doesn't conflict with another event. That aside, this date was specifically asked for by the group that is sponsoring the class, the IU Caving Club. That's whose "brilliant" idea it was to use that date, and it was discussed that it conflicted with TAG Fall Cave In. It was announced at Cave Capers because that was the same day we got official blessing by the Training Coordinator and the Regional Coordinator for the Central Region, Mike Huseman. We cannot advertise a seminar before it gets that blessing, and considering the idea to even have the seminar in the first place was put forth two days previous to Capers, we've moved pretty fast on this seminar. Normally these things are planned 4-6 months out. I understand the frustration of not being able to attend every caving event one would like. Volunteering with NCRC for the last two decades has caused me to miss out on several major caving events, including the discovery of a lifetime of a major new passage in a cave that I helped dig open, but I would ask that you please think twice before you write things that can easily be insulting to the very people who try very hard to make things possible for you.

Anmar Mirza, National Coordinator, National Cave Rescue Commission