Problems with rescues in cave

[Msabet]

Hello

I am assisting a friend of mine who is putting a power point presentation about problems associated with rescue or recoveries in caves. I could think of few problems such as establishing anchors, running water, hypothermia, long haul, tight spots etc but there has to be many more complicated problems with cave rescue especially long hauls ( 200 meter or more). My background is mountain rescue and I have done some confined space rescue so I am very familiar with rescue rigging but again, cave is different animal.

Reagrds

MS

[NZcaver]

Welcome back to the forum. Yes, cave rescue is a different animal.

The best way to gain familiarity is for you or your friend to attend some cave rescue training.

There's actually a weekend Orientation to Cave Rescue training coming up in a few weeks in San Andreas, CA. If you're in the Yosemite area, this is not far and would be the perfect opportunity to gain some insight into cave rescue. I highly recommend it. See http://www.caves.org/ncrc/ncrc-wr/OCR20 ... ration.pdf for full details.

An online resource which may also help is the NSS publication American Caving Accidents. This details hundreds and hundreds of caving related accidents and safety incidents in North America over the course of many years, and is published on line as well as in magazine form. See http://www.caves.org/pub/aca/

A further option might be to try Googling "cave rescue" or "ncrc cave" to search for more online information, photos, video clips, etc. Or use the forum search feature in the top right corner. You'll need to put in some time and effort sorting through the information, though. A recent fun topic to check out is 52 ways to die in a cave.

A few quick pearls of wisdom just off the top of my head. The importance of reliable, accurate and timely communication can not be emphasized enough. Your mountain rescue radios will most likely be totally useless underground (except perhaps line-of-sight), so alternative methods will be needed. There are many challenges in cave rescue which do not involve traditional ropework, although there are occasional "big open pit" rescues too. It's not uncommon for an easy, horizontal, beginner-type cave to suddenly require technical rope skills when it comes to moving a patient. If you're a rigging guy, think more about counterbalance hauls, vertical patient orientation and your personal SRT skills rather than giant highlines and tripods and 2+ person loads on a system.

Crack and crevice entrapment, rising floodwaters, and simple slip-and-fall injuries are a few possible accident scenarios. Hypothermia is usually an important concern, especially in tight spaces or water or when immobile due to injury. The type of person in need often defines the type of rescue required. Inexperienced "spelunkers" can get themselves into serious difficulty, but when experienced cavers have problems the solution can be a whole different ballgame by orders of magnitude. A serious situation is frequently the product of a cascade of events, rather than a single critical failure (vertical or not). For such small spaces (sometimes), caves can swallow a huge amount of rescue manpower and resources and become a proverbial black hole for eating up time and impeding the flow of information. Cave rescue can be confusing for traditional responders and AHJs who have no training or clue about cave environments, and incidents have been known to develop into a giant spectacle and prolonged national media circus above ground.

Don't quote me, because I might not know what I'm talking about. But I hope this helps. Good luck.

[John Lovaas]

Hi MS-

NZ has nailed it on the head.

I have to ask- what caving experience do you and your friend have? Some time spent caving- and more importantly, time spent in cave rescue training- might answer some of your questions.

If a cave rescue instructor posted up on a mountain rescue discussion board, wanting to assemble a Powerpoint presentation on mountain rescue- but didn't have any mountain rescue training or experience- you'd probably suggest the path the NZ pointed out; seek qualified advice and training.

[Msabet]

Welcome back to the forum. Yes, cave rescue is a different animal.

The best way to gain familiarity is for you or your friend to attend some cave rescue training.

There's actually a weekend Orientation to Cave Rescue training coming up in a few weeks in San Andreas, CA. If you're in the Yosemite area, this is not far and would be the perfect opportunity to gain some insight into cave rescue. I highly recommend it. See http://www.caves.org/ncrc/ncrc-wr/OCR20 ... ration.pdf for full details.

An online resource which may also help is the NSS publication American Caving Accidents. This details hundreds and hundreds of caving related accidents and safety incidents in North America over the course of many years, and is published on line as well as in magazine form. See http://www.caves.org/pub/aca/

A further option might be to try Googling "cave rescue" or "ncrc cave" to search for more online information, photos, video clips, etc. Or use the forum search feature in the top right corner. You'll need to put in some time and effort sorting through the information, though. A recent fun topic to check out is 52 ways to die in a cave.

A few quick pearls of wisdom just off the top of my head. The importance of reliable, accurate and timely communication can not be emphasized enough. Your mountain rescue radios will most likely be totally useless underground (except perhaps line-of-sight), so alternative methods will be needed. There are many challenges in cave rescue which do not involve traditional ropework, although there are occasional "big open pit" rescues too. It's not uncommon for an easy, horizontal, beginner-type cave to suddenly require technical rope skills when it comes to moving a patient. If you're a rigging guy, think more about counterbalance hauls, vertical patient orientation and your personal SRT skills rather than giant highlines and tripods and 2+ person loads on a system.

Crack and crevice entrapment, rising floodwaters, and simple slip-and-fall injuries are a few possible accident scenarios. Hypothermia is usually an important concern, especially in tight spaces or water or when immobile due to injury. The type of person in need often defines the type of rescue required. Inexperienced "spelunkers" can get themselves into serious difficulty, but when experienced cavers have problems the solution can be a whole different ballgame by orders of magnitude. A serious situation is frequently the product of a cascade of events, rather than a single critical failure (vertical or not). For such small spaces (sometimes), caves can swallow a huge amount of rescue manpower and resources and become a proverbial black hole for eating up time and impeding the flow of information. Cave rescue can be confusing for traditional responders and AHJs who have no training or clue about cave environments, and incidents have been known to develop into a giant spectacle and prolonged national media circus above ground.

Don't quote me, because I might not know what I'm talking about. But I hope this helps. Good luck.

Thanks for post and great links, As I said, I am aware that cave rescue is totally different . From your post, I picked up radio comm ,raising water and immobilization as some of the problems so far but I am sure, there are tons of more.

regards

Ms.

[NZcaver]

Thanks for post and great links, As I said, I am aware that cave rescue is totally different . From your post, I picked up radio comm ,raising water and immobilization as some of the problems so far but I am sure, there are tons of more.

Yep. Options for cave rescue communications usually include military field phones and wire or low frequency specialized cave radio transmitters. You may already know this, but most cave rescues nationwide involve volunteer caver responders - generally supporting (or being supported by) local agencies under an ICS structure. Tiny, fit, experienced cavers can be particularly valuable.

Other environmental factors to consider include bad air/high CO2 or methane (unusual but possible), patient assessment/stabilization/movement in very tight spaces where responders can't access the whole patient, passage constrictions where the patient may need to be unpackaged and repackaged again, and having to move a litter by passing hand-to-hand or dragging as well as carrying and hauling/lowering.

Cave rescuers are encouraged not to damage a cave in any way unless absolutely unavoidable. Don't fight the cave. Responders should consider assisting a lightly injured patient to help him or her self out of the cave, and offer any other conscious/cooperate experienced caver patient a role in his/her own rescue. This can be very valuable psychologically, especially if it takes more than 24 hours to extricate a patient from a cave.

Still lots more to talk about. As I suggested earlier, attend some cave rescue training. It's probably the best value for money technical rescue training you will ever receive ANYWHERE.

4000 posts already? Damn!

[cavedoc]

Hi Majid,
NZcaver has hit the highlights. I might add that gear for mountain rescue like Stokes litters and crag bags with lots of gear loops may be totally inappropriate in the underground environment. I will be teaching at the seminar listed above. We'd love to see you. If you are still in Yosemite I may be able to help you with your talk or give one for you. I have talked to other SAR groups about cave rescue. I am in Fresno.

Roger Mortimer
Western Region Coordinator
National Cave Rescue Commission

[Msabet]

Hi Majid,
NZcaver has hit the highlights. I might add that gear for mountain rescue like Stokes litters and crag bags with lots of gear loops may be totally inappropriate in the underground environment. I will be teaching at the seminar listed above. We'd love to see you. If you are still in Yosemite I may be able to help you with your talk or give one for you. I have talked to other SAR groups about cave rescue. I am in Fresno.

Roger Mortimer
Western Region Coordinator
National Cave Rescue Commission

Roger

I am in California .Send me your phone so I could call you, hopefully today.
majid_sabet@hotmail.com

Regards

[Stridergdm]

Thanks for post and great links, As I said, I am aware that cave rescue is totally different . From your post, I picked up radio comm ,raising water and immobilization as some of the problems so far but I am sure, there are tons of more.

regards

Ms.

I would say "comms in general". Some have described cave rescue from the surface perspective as "things go down into a hole and you don't hear from them again for a long period of time." The other thing that some above ground SAR folks have commented to me is the timing. Up where I am in the Northeast where we have tight nasty passages, you can tell the IC, "The patient is 100 yards from the entrance and should be there in 3 hours." Rising water honestly, in my very limited experience generally isn't a common issue. When it is an issue it's a serious issue, but in many places it's a consideration but not one that has to be acted upon often.

Hypothermia, hypothermia, hypothermia. The cave isn't going to warm up and often the patient will have large portions of their body in contact with the rock or mud. That means heat loss, rapidly. Combine that with water and well, you can get the picture.

And of course immobilization.

So, pretty much, what NZCaver and others have said.

I'll add two things.

One: just like above ground SAR, caves can vary greatly around the country. Here in the Northeast, we're talking cold, tight, small. (We did have a rescue where it took I think 30 hours or so before the patient was FREE and another 6+ before he was out. The entire time he was only about 100 yards from the entrance.)

In the Georgia area, you may be talking about a 300' vertical haul. In New York, if we have a 30' vertical haul we consider it big drop. (300' in NY would be absolutely incredible.

In the Pacific Northwest, well you get even colder temps, etc.

And as others have suggested, if you can take the OCR with Roger, I highly recommend it.

(BTW, I just taught a one day class to a bunch SAR folks and they all pretty much agreed it was much different from their above ground experiences. And honestly, the "cave" we were in was really a cleft in the rock. )

Good luck and let us know how things go.

[Msabet]

Hi Majid,
NZcaver has hit the highlights. I might add that gear for mountain rescue like Stokes litters and crag bags with lots of gear loops may be totally inappropriate in the underground environment. I will be teaching at the seminar listed above. We'd love to see you. If you are still in Yosemite I may be able to help you with your talk or give one for you. I have talked to other SAR groups about cave rescue. I am in Fresno.

Roger Mortimer
Western Region Coordinator
National Cave Rescue Commission

Roger

your email was deleted via spam, send your phone # again, thanks

[cavedoc]

Majid,
E-mail and PM sent.
Roger

[snoboy]

I know this is an old topic, but thought I'd weigh in since I have some limited experience in both disciplines.

I am a Rope Rescue team leader for my local SAR and working on being an instructor. I have done basic Cave Rescue training.

My biggest challenge when thrown into leading a rigging team on our underground scenario was anchors... Your not going to find trees or vehicles to work with, and the rock is a different beast than aboveground. Is that big cemented pile of cobbles good to go or not??? How thick does a limestone thread need to be to support a couple cavers???

[Scott McCrea]

Is that big cemented pile of cobbles good to go or not??? How thick does a limestone thread need to be to support a couple cavers???

Maybe.

Just thick enough.

Experience is the only guide I know of when it comes to choosing anchors.

[cavedoc]

But if I throw just a few more cobbles onto the pile it'll be OK. Right?

[wyandottecaver]

I once watched a DNR Cave rescue team on a training excercise rig a big cone shaped stagmite at a pit edge. 2-3 folks went down fine. They had gotten low to the ground to ease over the lip. Then one guy decided to stand up and feed rope till he was about 90 deg and then walk down. The higher angle of the rope caused it to slip off the top of the stal just as he was over the pit. He was quite lucky. The pit was only about 15ft with a sediment bottom and he bounced off the far wall first....

Another time a group I was with were going to rap a 60ft pit you entered headfirst from a crawlway. They rigged a rope to a *mud* column about 1ft across. I thought they were nuts......until I found out the rope then ran down about 100ft of sticky mud crawlway. I still didn't do the drop, but the ground friction alone was probably the real anchor.

[Anonymous_Coward]

Another time a group I was with were going to rap a 60ft pit you entered headfirst from a crawlway. They rigged a rope to a *mud* column about 1ft across. I thought they were nuts......until I found out the rope then ran down about 100ft of sticky mud crawlway. I still didn't do the drop, but the ground friction alone was probably the real anchor.

I know where this is! I've done this drop twice. It is a good anchor, for the situation.