NCRC weeklong 2007

[Stridergdm]

Unless it has changed since I took Level 2, as stated above gloves are required when handling a weighted rope moving through a rappel or belay device / system, more specifically in belay, rappels, and lowers (maybe even hauling), but not when climbing, doing change overs, or pickoffs until lowering the load (you and / or the patient).

I specifically remember a Level 2 student who was doing the “pick off” check off and forgot her gloves. She performed all the steps to set up lowering the patient, then took the patient’s gloves and lowered him. She passed the check off. Ask Becky, I believe she was the one who checked her off.

Ayup. That's unorthodox, but technically works.

L.J.

P.S Also, technically when rappelling the rope is not moving, the rappel device is. So maybe the “moving rope” definition is not a good one.

The rope is moving through your hand and has the potential to move in an uncontrolled fashion.

[ljthawk]

Not to get in a debate, but when climbing the rope it could be running through the hands depending on what the person is doing with them. If rappelling on a long rack the rope may not be going through someone’s hands if only using one hand, depending on what they consider the “brake” hand.*

I do agree the definition of “rope going through the hands” is a better definition than “moving rope”

Time to go rig the rope in the tree for practice.

L.J.

*Again, I don’t want to debate which hand is the brake hand as there are two schools of thought. Even when asking the “fathers” and “old timers” of rappelling with racks will result in potentially different answers, with both schools having technical merit and years of practical experience to support.

[Stridergdm]

Well, forget brake-hand for a minute... think of it this way.

Ever hear of a uncontrolled ascent? (Though I dare say Berta probably ascends ropes faster than some of us descend ropes.

[Scott McCrea]

Ascend 10 meters, passing a knot, down climb two meters, change over to rappel and descend, passing a knot. Start with gear in pack; on rappel demonstrate a hard lock off.

I tried this today in the tree. The limb is only 8 meters high, so I climbed, passed the knot, climbed to the top, down climbed 2 meters to the knot, climbed back up to the top, changed over to rappel, passed the knot and rapped down.

My first attempt was 7:40. My second was long and I gave up on timing. My third was 6:50.

I used a Micro-rack and a Texas system with two handled ascenders, a foot loop and a single cows tail.

I'm pretty sure I could get it down to about 5:30, since I made several mistakes and just taking the gear out of the bag and putting it on took about 1:30. Of course, going as fast as possible is not the goal of the requirement, but it's still fun to see what can be done to make it faster while still keeping it safe.

[ljthawk]

I understand and agree with the intent, its just that I never liked the imprecise wording of the glove criteria. Maybe they have rephrased it.

One thing you learn when teaching diverse backgrounds, especially those technically minded, is that people will interpret differently and many technical people will blast holes through any inconsistent rule or inconsistent application of a rule.

When in Level 2 two different instructors interpreted and enforced the glove rule differently. While in the above story one instructor only required gloves when lowering or handling a load through a belay / rappel device, another instructor required gloves anytime you handled rope, period. I was told to get my gloves when setting up pulley systems on flat ground for check off / practice, even though no load was ever applied to the systems.

If the criterion is imprecise, leave the wording general with a unified “application understanding” by the instructors and convey the criterion intent to the students. If precise, then come up with an accurate wording with strict and consistent application / enforcement.

L.J.

[Stridergdm]

I understand and agree with the intent, it just that I never liked the imprecise wording of the glove criteria. Maybe they have rephrased it.

One thing you learn when teaching diverse backgrounds, especially those technically minded, is that people will interpret differently and many technical people will blast holes through any inconsistent rule or inconsistent application of a rule.

When in Level 2 two different instructors interpreted and enforced the glove rule differently. While in the above story one instructor only required gloves when lowering or handling a load through a belay / rappel device, another instructor required gloves anytime you handled rope, period. I was told to get my gloves when setting up pulley systems on flat ground for check off / practice, even though no load was ever applied to the systems.

If the criterion is imprecise, leave the wording general with a unified “application understanding” by the instructors and convey the criterion intent to the students. If precise, then come up with an accurate wording with strict and consistent application / enforcement.

L.J.

Hmm. We haven't changed it as far as I can recall (note I'm saying this unofficially

But yeah, one of the things we're trying to work on is making sure all instructors interpret the guidelines the same way. And the other is getting all the instructors to actually pay attention when we DO tell them what to say. (I predict despite us continually word-smithing what a QAS is, how it's used, etc, there will be instructors who teach it wrong.)


BUT, I will say this (and this is NOT directed to anyone specifically here)... for better or for worse, unless it's an absolute safety factor, "the instructor is right". (i.e. at least during class and check-offs, listen to what the instructor says. You can bring up the issue later with the Training Coordinator, Dave Ashburn, who ultimately has final say. But arguing during class, does little good for anyone. On the other hand, if you see something unsafe, or feel something is unsafe, by all means speak up. )

I had a case of this during one of my mocks as a level 3. The "instructor angel" insisted on us rigging a counter-balance in a specific way. It wasn't any safer, nor was it less safer. But it was more of a pain to use. We bit our tongues and simply did it. Oh well, whatcha gonna do?

(Did I mention I like counter-balances... it's one are where my slight extra "mass" comes in handy

[ljthawk]

I didn’t think angels were suppose to participate / offer advise unless there was a safety issue?

Speaking of Angels, I used that term in a meeting to describe one of our administrative assistants as she walked around and quietly observed ergonomic office postures / habits. She was flattered by the term and said I made her day.

L.J.


On edit:

I almost agree with your statement “for better or for worse, unless it's an absolute safety factor, "the instructor is right"”

I would 100% agree with “for better or for worse, unless it's an absolute safety factor, "the instructor is the authority"”

It may only be a word change, but a more precise interpretation that holds to the intent of the message. Right implies someone is wrong. There was also an incident where an instructor was interpreting the check off requirements differently than other instructors. Someone very capable was about to fail on technicalities not being enforced (or taught) by any other instructor. Dave didn’t have to get involved (though he watched), rather other instructors were called to the issue and it was worked out.

[Stridergdm]

I didn’t think angels were suppose to participate / offer advise unless there was a safety issue?

Speaking of Angels, I used that term in a meeting to describe one of our administrative assistants as she walked around and quietly observed ergonomic office postures / habits. She was flattered by the term and said I made her day.

L.J.

He thought it was a safety issue. It wasn't.

Oh... and for the record.. angels aren't supposed to... but they've been known to drop a few hints here and there.

(Passing Anmar and Punches in one passage... then further in the cave seeing them again with a "****"-eating grin (which given the water in Parks Ranch Cave might have been accurate ;-) gave us a clue as to where we might have missed a patient.... )

[chrismc]

As I'm realizing that I'm leaving for the weeklong in less than two weeks, I've come up with a couple questions:

Food: Are the meals all-inclusive? Will we need to provide our own in-cave lunches or anything like that, or can I just "not worry" about food for this trip?

Clothing: Will we be in-cave everyday, or classroom some days and cave other days? How many "dry" clothes will I need...?

I took an OCR weekend once many years ago so I have some idea what I'm getting into, but the weeklong is obviously much more involved.

[Carl Amundson]

As I'm realizing that I'm leaving for the weeklong in less than two weeks, I've come up with a couple questions:

Food: Are the meals all-inclusive? Will we need to provide our own in-cave lunches or anything like that, or can I just "not worry" about food for this trip?

Clothing: Will we be in-cave everyday, or classroom some days and cave other days? How many "dry" clothes will I need...?

I took an OCR weekend once many years ago so I have some idea what I'm getting into, but the weeklong is obviously much more involved.

By your questions I can tell this is your first time at NCRC.

Food - not to worry, NCRC folks will feed you well. Lunches are "brown bagged" and will be provided.
You might want to bring some cave snacks to keep in your pack and don't forget to bring a water bottle

Clothing - Bring more then you think you will need. They run you pretty hard and there is no time to "run to the laundromat". Also, bring mostly long pants.

One more thing - bring all your caving stuff (and any extras you have). You will be in cave at least 5 out of the 8 days.

Did I mention, BRING LOTS OF CLOTHES...

[tncaveres]

You will only be feed by NCRC if you paid for the meal ticket.($160) Also they do not serve the first meal till Saturday morning. So if you plan on showing up on Friday make sure you bring food for dinner.

You can never have enough clothes. I remember 2 yrs ago I did not bring enough clothes & half way through the week I had to drive to Huntsville (about 45min away) @ 10:30 at night justv to warsh my clothes at a clothes mat so I would have something to wear the next day.
Did not make that mistake the next yr.
Also bring extra boots for caving because sometimes your boots only overnight to dry out before the cave trip.

[chrismc]

Thanks for the quick answers! Looks like I'll be hitting up the good 'ol Army surplus store for some more cave-wear. My only previous experience with back-to-back caving that eats up gear has been in surveying Carroll Cave, and that was just a matter of crawling back into the cold, soggy wetsuit each morning. As I understand it, Level 1 won't be wetsuit caving, though...

[tncaveres]

No you will not need a wetsuit in level 1.
Heck they have not used a wetsuit in the last 2 level 3 classes at Union Hill,Al.

You said you mapped Carroll cave. Is this the one in Coffee County,TN?

[Carl Amundson]

No you will not need a wetsuit in level 3.

A wetsuit is required for Level 3. It's part of the gear you need to show up with(along with a PFD).
I use HydroSkin from NRS for my wetsuit. It has all the advantages of a regular wetsuit, but is thin and flexable.
I wear it under my cave suit and it works great.
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product_list.asp?deptid=942&ggkey=hydroskin

[chrismc]

No you will not need a wetsuit in level 3.
Heck they have not used a wetsuit in the last 2 level 3 classes at Union Hill,Al.

You said you mapped Carroll cave. Is this the one in Coffee County,TN?

Nope, Camden County, MO. I helped open the new entrance to the cave, and helped on many of the early survey trips, but then politics got involved and myself and most of the other dedicated cavers parted ways. More info at http://carrollcave.org/, although I am no longer affiliated with them.