NCRC weeklong 2007

[Tim White]

Just to be perfectly clear, there will be no field tracheotomies at this year's seminar.

Nor any other Seminar.

[cavedoc55]

Well, Tim, never say "Never!"

[Tim White]

Well, Tim, never say "Never!"

True... Let's just hope that it never has to be preformed "for real".
Now if you want to start teaching medical a bit more in-depth....

[Stridergdm]

Well, Tim, never say "Never!"

True... Let's just hope that it never has to be preformed "for real".
Now if you want to start teaching medical a bit more in-depth....

So, Tim, you volunteering to be the patient?

[Carl Amundson]

Got my Level 3 student preparation guide today.
No "build your own 100' kernmantle rope out of shoelaces and dental floss" or field tracheotomies, thanks God...

No real suprises either.
Now I need to fine hone my tecnique and work on my times.
I don't think I can get my SRT stuff under 8 minutes.
So far my best time is 8 min 30 sec.
But I will keep practicing...

[Scott McCrea]

Can you tell us what SRT stuff you have to do in under 8 minutes? Or is it secret? Just curious if I can do it. Someday, I'll take level 3...

[Stridergdm]

I believe I copied the right piece of documentation here:


Ascend 10 meters, passing a knot, down climb two meters, change over to rappel and descend, passing a knot. Start with gear in pack; on rappel demonstrate a hard lock off.

(I believe that's what was confirmed).

8 minutes is for the best score.

Level 3 SRT

(note that does not have the updated time)

My suggestion, work on the sub 8 minutes, but don't sweat it. We've seen to many people rush things to get the best score on time and make mistakes elsewhere.

We really want to see competence. If you're doing 8:30 smoothly and cleanly, that's a lot better than doing in 7:59 and making a mistake.

(couple of mistakes that will guarantee you fail:
Forgetting helmet/gloves in the fall zone
Failing to maintain 2 points of solid contact to the rope when not committed to rappel. So, for example, don't rush the ascent and pass the knot w/o clipping in a cowstail first. Sure, you might save a few seconds, but then you're fail ;-)




Good luck and see you there.

(and I've got to get practicing on my other skills...)

[Scott McCrea]

OK, thanks!

So, in order to get the most points you must safely complete that stuff in under 10 minutes. I think I'll try that this weekend in the tree.

[NZcaver]

(couple of mistakes that will guarantee you fail:
Forgetting helmet/gloves in the fall zone

Here's a point to ponder. Although personally I use gloves when rappelling (but prefer not to when ascending), I know several competent vertical cavers who choose not to use gloves on rope at all and do just fine. So "forgetting gloves" could be open to interpretation when it comes to the checkoffs, unless Greg, Tim, etc can clarify?

Now when it comes to requiring gloves for "handling ropes that have the potential to become loaded " (rescue hauls, belays, etc) - absolutely!

[Stridergdm]

(couple of mistakes that will guarantee you fail:
Forgetting helmet/gloves in the fall zone

Here's a point to ponder. Although personally I use gloves when rappelling (but prefer not to when ascending), I know several competent vertical cavers who choose not to use gloves on rope at all and do just fine. So "forgetting gloves" could be open to interpretation when it comes to the checkoffs, unless Greg, Tim, etc can clarify?

Now when it comes to requiring gloves for "handling ropes that have the potential to become loaded " (rescue hauls, belays, etc) - absolutely!

Well "yes and no". For the NCRC checkoffs, it's NOT open to interpretation. (now, if folks want to open that discussion with the Ed Committee, etc. that's a different issue.) But it is open to clarification.

I'd have to check my notes, but I believe technically it's gloves required for a moving rope. So, ascending and change-over w/o gloves ON, is fine. Descending though requires wearing the gloves (since now the rope is obviously moving and has the potential to move quickly and cause injuries.)

[NZcaver]

I worded my previous post poorly. Sure enough the SRT checkoff criteria sheet says in order to score a "2" a student must "wear gloves at all times while handling moving rope."

Well of course there are many ways of doing things - and then there's the NCRC way. I guess all the tech rescue/mtn rescue teams teach their grunts to always rappel with gloves, so it certainly makes some sense for this logic to spill over into NCRC curriculum. I also recall a heated discussion about the pros and cons of fingerless gloves a few years back. I think they're still allowed though, at least for SRT checkoffs.

[cavedoc55]

I have to disagree w/ Stridergdm here.
In the past, gloves have been required for ascending AND descending. I'm not sure where, or if, that is specifically spelled out, but I'm not sure it HAS to be specifically spelled out. Who has final say? I think the training coordinator does.
A lot of things are required in NCRC training which may not be applicable IRL, just like ATLS + ACLS.
Altho some persons may prefer to not wear gloves, during NCRC exercises, gloves are required. The same is true of helmets: some spelunkers may prefer to not wear helmets, but they will be required to do so during NCRC.
I guess the question comes down to: is it worth the fight? Sure, you're a vertical guru who can descend upside down + backwards while lighting your bong, but to get thru NCRC, you have to do things the NCRC way. Just like ACLS + ATLS + PALS.
OK, enough.

Stephen Mosberg

"All opinions in this forum, including mine, Stridergdm's, + Tim White's, are personal opinions and do not represent the official policy or standards of the Education Board of the NCRC or the NCRC BORC."

BTW, if there were time, I would love to have an informal roundtable discussion about advanced Medical techniques. The BORC has decided that NCRC Medical will be taught at a BLS level which I think is appropriate.

[NZcaver]

I have to disagree w/ Stridergdm here.
In the past, gloves have been required for ascending AND descending. I'm not sure where, or if, that is specifically spelled out, but I'm not sure it HAS to be specifically spelled out. Who has final say? I think the training coordinator does.

Interesting. I just did a quick seach of some NCRC photos from the last 5 years. Although the vast majority of people are seen wearing gloves while on rope, some are not. Specifically, I found photos from the 2002 (NY) and 2004 (IN) weeklongs showing several instances of glove-less people, climbing on the indoor ropes doing changeover/pickoff practice and/or testing. Of course things may have since changed. (And FYI, all the shots of people rappelling or lowering patients do show gloves on.)

I'm not suggesting what should be right or wrong, and (like the others) my opinions should not be taken as representing the policies of any organization. I'm just saying what I've seen. Sorry I can't post the photos, but they're not mine.

I guess the question comes down to: is it worth the fight?

Probably not, but I think many things are at least worth discussing - especially at times other than during the weeklong itself. There are subtle differences between discussion and fighting, and I think you'll agree the latter rarely leads to any productive results or has people learning things. Just my 2 cents.


PS - Great idea about starting an informal discussion on advanced medical techniques and the NCRC.
Perhaps you could start a new thread about it?

[Stridergdm]

I have to disagree w/ Stridergdm here.
In the past, gloves have been required for ascending AND descending. I'm not sure where, or if, that is specifically spelled out, but I'm not sure it HAS to be specifically spelled out. Who has final say? I think the training coordinator does.
A lot of things are required in NCRC training which may not be applicable IRL, just like ATLS + ACLS.
Altho some persons may prefer to not wear gloves, during NCRC exercises, gloves are required. The same is true of helmets: some spelunkers may prefer to not wear helmets, but they will be required to do so during NCRC.
I guess the question comes down to: is it worth the fight? Sure, you're a vertical guru who can descend upside down + backwards while lighting your bong, but to get thru NCRC, you have to do things the NCRC way. Just like ACLS + ATLS + PALS.
OK, enough.

Stephen Mosberg

"All opinions in this forum, including mine, Stridergdm's, + Tim White's, are personal opinions and do not represent the official policy or standards of the Education Board of the NCRC or the NCRC BORC."

BTW, if there were time, I would love to have an informal roundtable discussion about advanced Medical techniques. The BORC has decided that NCRC Medical will be taught at a BLS level which I think is appropriate.

I'm not sure if we're really disagreeing or just remembering things differently. And yes, as your disclaimer points out, unless stated otherwise, my statements, yours, Tim's, do not reflect official policy or standards of the Ed Committee or the BORC.

Now, personally, I tend to use a pair of PMI's technical rope gloves and love them. I tend to do all my work with gloves on.

As for a medical discussion, I'm not medically qualified to comment, but I think a roundtable would be great. (actually I'm going to start a thread based on an observation I've had.)

Perhaps some evening during weeklong (Wednesday night?)

[ljthawk]

Unless it has changed since I took Level 2, as stated above gloves are required when handling a weighted rope moving through a rappel or belay device / system, more specifically in belay, rappels, and lowers (maybe even hauling), but not when climbing, doing change overs, or pickoffs until lowering the load (you and / or the patient).

I specifically remember a Level 2 student who was doing the “pick off” check off and forgot her gloves. She performed all the steps to set up lowering the patient, then took the patient’s gloves and lowered him. She passed the check off. Ask Becky, I believe she was the one who checked her off.

L.J.

P.S Also, technically when rappelling the rope is not moving, the rappel device is. So maybe the “moving rope” definition is not a good one.