New Jersey White Nose Reports

[dfcaver]

Recent news report of 90% of New Jersey bats are dead.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/040210_bats.html

No mention of caver spread in the article.

[hewhocaves]

mostly because all the bats in NJ are in mines not visited by cavers, caves that have been shut by landowners or state agencies more interested in making a buck on caving than promoting safe caving or in caves only a very few people know about.

There hasn't been any serious caving in NJ since about 2000.

[John Chenger]

Actually, there's at least 2 organized mine clubs in that area that are more active than a lot of grottos.

[kevinpsarianos]

John, As a long-time NJ caver and current CNJG officer, I have the following regarding your post:

In my opinion, your post is entirely irrelevant to the prior posts in this thread. I’m actually a bit confused on what constructive reason you may have to choose to post it.

At least half of what you say is borne out of ignorance to the facts. While you may have some contacts with mining clubs in NJ, I’m confident that your contacts with the CNJG are minimal to nonexistent. And, 'yes' we are alive and well, and quite active. I suspect that if I were to check with the other two grottoes, I would get similar responses. In fact, my only knowledge of your involvement with any NJ underground activities are that you came to help the State a few times for bat counts. During those times, you had some limited contact with members of TS3 Grotto and the NJIRT, who were present as safety consultants to the State. I’m aware of these visits because these visits cause the NJIRT to issue alerts for accidents that may result from your activities.

About the posts from the other authors, they appear to accurately reflect the state of caving or abandoned mine exploration in NJ. The history of access is convoluted and many more locations are closed than open.

[hewhocaves]

Actually, there's at least 2 organized mine clubs in that area that are more active than a lot of grottos.

John,

Your disparaging marks towards New Jersey cavers are unappreciated. I had no idea that you had so quickly resolved the White Nose Syndrome that you could spend your idle hours talking down towards your fellow cavers. Oh wait, you didn't solve WNS? Well, then perhaps you'd better look to your own plate before commenting negatively on others.

John Tudek, member CNJG, former member NNJG.
Former Chair of Central NJ Grotto,
Former coordinator of the New Jersey Cave Survey,
Former Chair of the New Jersey Cave Conservancy,
Author of two regional guidebooks about NJ Caves.

[wyandottecaver]

hmmm I find myself in the surprising position of defending john C.

First, his post was very relevent to the topic as the statement in the previous post by John T was made that "all the bats in NJ are in mines not visited by cavers".... and followed by........ "there hasn't been any serious caving in NJ since 2000" This implied, at least in my reading of that post, that caver spread was not mentioned because cavers (AKA people) werent going where the bats are.
Thus his assertion that there were at least 2 clubs who WERE actively going in mines would show that human transmission might be a factor (john C views on what "relevant data" means on that topic we do not agree on )
Further, he did not not mention NJ cavers or grottos (although the previous post itself claimed "no serious caving" was occuring in NJ.) I assure you that if these mine clubs go underground more than 1/month they ARE more active than many grottoes.

Kevins post actually made me laugh out loud. you get all sanctimonious about john C being ignorant of the thread and of NJ cavers and their activity levels and make it a point to interject information about your "alerts" for possible accidents during bat counts THEN have the gall to validate the previous posts that SAID THERE WASNT ANY SERIOUS CAVING IN NJ! Maybe you need to read the thread.

John T last post was very nearly outside the TOS and ridiculous to boot. The only "disparaging" thing john C said was that the mine groups were more active than "some grottoes" and YOU YOURSELF had just said there had been no serious caving in NJ?

The problem with forums (I'm guilty too) is that people type faster than they read and they read faster than they think.

[hewhocaves]

hmmm I find myself in the surprising position of defending john C.

First, his post was very relevent to the topic as the statement in the previous post by John T was made that "all the bats in NJ are in mines not visited by cavers".... and followed by........ "there hasn't been any serious caving in NJ since 2000" This implied, at least in my reading of that post, that caver spread was not mentioned because cavers (AKA people) werent going where the bats are.
Thus his assertion that there were at least 2 clubs who WERE actively going in mines would show that human transmission might be a factor (john C views on what "relevant data" means on that topic we do not agree on )

which just goes to show you are about as knowledgeable as Chenger about the NJ underground, i.e. not at all. I've been in many of the mines that are in NJ and the ones accessible to people are NOT the ones with lots of bats in them.

Further, he did not not mention NJ cavers or grottos (although the previous post itself claimed "no serious caving" was occuring in NJ.) I assure you that if these mine clubs go underground more than 1/month they ARE more active than many grottoes.

the implication (understood by at least two people) is that it was NJ. Perhaps Mr. Chenger needs to clarify his statements.

Kevins post actually made me laugh out loud. you get all sanctimonious about john C being ignorant of the thread and of NJ cavers and their activity levels and make it a point to interject information about your "alerts" for possible accidents during bat counts THEN have the gall to validate the previous posts that SAID THERE WASNT ANY SERIOUS CAVING IN NJ! Maybe you need to read the thread.

Kevin is quite accurate in his assessment. Recreational caving is very dead in NJ. The rare trips are usually at the behest of some agency or to rescue some spelunker who trapped themselves in a cave or mine. It is the spelunker who has done a lot of the damage in closing caves - from the cave-for-pay antics of some, to the crooked swamp fatality, to locals hopping fences to poke into holes. Heck we even had a multi-million dollar development hung up for two decades over a former commercial cave. Again, if you have no clue what you're talking about, you really can't expect to sound anything but foolish.

John T last post was very nearly outside the TOS and ridiculous to boot. The only "disparaging" thing john C said was that the mine groups were more active than "some grottoes" and YOU YOURSELF had just said there had been no serious caving in NJ?

It's outside the TOS because... you didn't agree with it? Because it spoke the truth? Regarding the no serious caving in NJ... that is just within the last decade. Prior to that, there was a fine history of caving in the Garden State. We had one of the earliest published state surveys and one of the earliest cave conservancies. We count many influential members in our numbers including three past presidents of the NSS. Or does NJ not count because it is easy to make fun of?

The problem with forums (I'm guilty too) is that people type faster than they read and they read faster than they think.

And this is my fault? Perhaps people should review their posts before submitting them. Or better yet, not. This way no one is accountable for what they say. I believe the people who broke off the formations in Kentucky tried the same defense. Why don't you ask them how THAT went?

[kevinpsarianos]

W,
After rereading John Chenger’s post and those that preceded it, I maintain my original interpretation of his post. Should I get some clarification to the contrary, I will be quick to apologize for putting words in his mouth.

Regarding your input on this matter, I have no response.

[NZcaver]

Folks, please ease up a little.

I'm not familiar with NJ speleopolitics, but I fail to see how this single line from John C is such a big insult to NJ grottos and cavers. It's certainly doesn't appear to warrant the aggressive replies it has received. Nobody's getting slapped with TOS violations, but I want you all to take a deep breath. Like I did when making this post. Thanks.

[Dan Henry]

HUH, What's that sound? Sounds like an axe grinding to me...

[John Chenger]

Actually, now that I think about it, there are at least 3 mining clubs in that area more active than most grottos. Pretty zippy websites, too.

In fact, one of the guys I met last month claimed to have been on 400 mine trips in the last 3 years, complete with journal, and he isn't even the most active "member". And his group has been to mines with lots and lots of bats "not open to the public". So how 'bout just considering cavers might be one user group of many and not the center of the underground universe for once?

-thanks wyandotte, NZcaver, and Dan Henry for being straight shooters and following this thread with common sense. Thanks dfcaver for posting what he surely thought was the most innocent post that instead proved more entertaining than he imagined.
- virtually all known hibernating bats that were in NJ were in a cluster of 3 mines near Mt. Hope/Hibernia.
- some rather adventurous mine enthusiasts helped themselves on more than one occasion to explore the easiest of the three.
- virtually all the bats at those sites are now dead from WNS.
- the "solution" for WNS won't be available for years and it's beyond my expertise, so being angry at me for not "fixing" it isn't helpful. And really now, where am I being disparaging negative anywhere in this thread?
- And just for Kevin, John and Mitzi weren't consultants to the State, I sought them out as part of the trip pre-plan and knew them from prior endeavors back in the stone age being involved with the ERNCRC. The "State" (Melissa in this case) wouldn't even have known the NJIRT even existed. I admire your pride and vigorous defense of your home turf of NJ grottos, but it's wasted rant on me in this case. What the original post actually does is take on ALL grottos generically nationwide, and what the heck, I'll still stand firm on it as I am pretty certain the AVERAGE grotto member does NOT rack up 400 cave trips in 3 years (and cavers working in commercial caves don't count!) BTW I'll be checking back later for the apology you promised, as I am still spitting out words that were unceremoniously stuffed in my pie hole while I wasn't looking!

[dfcaver]

Back to the original article - my point was simply that this is one of the few (and the only one this year) that I've read that did NOT point a finger at cavers. Almost every media account highlights an "expert" blaming human transmission as a major probability, or even a certainty. This article made no mention of any human (including cavers) transmission.

[kevinpsarianos]

John C, Thanks for your clarification. I truly believed that you were referring to local cavers. As such, I am sorry for posting a reply that would have fostered that impression.
Kevin

[ron_miller]

John Chenger,

Thank you for continuing to post here on Cavechat, despite the occasionally rancorous tone that discussions here can sometimes take on. The overall quality of this forum benefits greatly from contributions by actual bat scientists like you.

Ron Miller

[hewhocaves]

John,

Thank you for elaborating on your previous post. Taking the time to explain fully what you meant is much preferable to short statements that are open to misinterpretation.

John